Modded Oktava vs u47

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kidvybes said:
...no knock on the modded Oktava...just that there are some great sounding mics that can be had for around $300 on Ebay these days...
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And that would make for a fair comparison, which is the point I was trying to make. If it's a $300 mic, then comparing it to other $300 mics ... might be a more realistic starting point. Far from throwing a "tantrum," I think it's probably one of my more level-headed and sensible recommendations, whether or not it's something you agree with.

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kidvybes said:
...the truth is (getting back on point) that the original Russian Oktava mics suffered from such drastic inconsistancy, that the odds that you got a "good one" were less than likely...I tried hard (spending a long afternoon at GC with a very patient sales rep) to determine which of the MK319 mics I demo'ed was worthy of a space in my mic closet, only to bring it home and after a few brief tracking sessions offered it up on eBay for about what I paid ($69?)...
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See, again, is this just your experience? What makes this "truth"? A statistically valid sampling study of customer satisfaction may show some "truth", but otherwise I would imagine that you are reporting on anectdotal accounts or on your and Chessrock's experience. I have not seen these problems widely reported, but admittedly I may simply have not seen it.

kidvybes said:
....so it only makes sense that Mr. Joly's Oktavamod service is a valuable one...in my mind, I've not run across another brand (including many of the Chinese OEM brands) that is heralded by so many and yet has a reputation so riddled with QC issues...Mr. Joly's upgraded/modded mics may well be "the bomb", but I have to agree with Chessrock that at this point in time, there are many very capable mics at very fair pricing that deliver impressive results right out of the box....

...no knock on the modded Oktava...just that there are some great sounding mics that can be had for around $300 on Ebay these days...one has only to listen to Harvey G's recently posted vocals tracked with a SP T3 to appreciate one of the many options available...U47 or not ...;)
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This was never in dispute. There are many great mics at great prices. All can be useful tools. This is not ever meant to be a completely polarized argument-- I, personally, am not recommending this mic at the exclusion of all others. "Getting back on point," read the title of this thread-- it is "Modded Oktava vs. U47" not "Modded Oktava vs. Studio Projects T3" or "Modded Oktava vs. AT 4033/4040/4047/4050." Also, I've said it before, acknowledging that Harvey is a gifted engineer and that he works with great talent-- and those considerations are paramount and more significant than mic choice, but if you're gonna use a Studio Projects T3 or a MXL V69 or V77, it certainly doesn't hurt to run the mic through a Milennia or a Great River preamp, or through the pres on an MCI or Soundtracs console.
 
chessrock said:
Why do people keep comparing all these littel Fischer-Price toy mics ... to real mics?

It's just not a fair comparison, and it's only going to encourage expectations that are very unrealistic.

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chessrock said:
And that would make for a fair comparison, which is the point I was trying to make. If it's a $300 mic, then comparing it to other $300 mics ... might be a more realistic starting point. Far from throwing a "tantrum," I think it's probably one of my more level-headed and sensible recommendations, whether or not it's something you agree with.

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Same thread, posts with very different tones. If you don't like the idea, or don't want to try them that is completely cool of course, but denigrating other people's positive testimonials of them or other people's desire to try them just because you think your AT is better is kind of lame IMHO.

On the issue of limiting comparisons of this mic to mics in its price class, why? Why not see how this mic stacks up to mics well out of its price class? Isn't that totally in the spirit of what Harvey G has been maintaining-- that you can get excellent results with less money? Isn't that what you've been saying too-- the MCA SP-1's are solid mics, the AT mics are solid mics? Isn't it worth putting out there with not just testimonials, but unsolicited sound clips made by users that these mics can compete and hold their own against mics that cost 10 or more times more? Why is this a worthy cause when you post about it with the mics you have, or Harvey posts about it with the mics that he has, but not when Oktavamod users post about their mics?

I believe that the stock Oktava's problems may not be just around Quality Control, but rather around fundamental design problems with their physical construction (headbasket acoustic issues and body resonance) and then cost cutting measures in circuit board components which were exacerbated by extraneous features (poorly designed pads and high pass filters). My experience and the experience of others who have had these mods is that Michael Joly's work remedies these problems and makes these mics special. This is a very similar philosophy to the one that Dave Royer took when conceiving of his Royer mod to the MXL 2001-- that the capsule was decent, but powered completely inadequately by a flawed circuit.

In any case, I think it's a real shame that you sold your MK-319 here for $50 and that Kidvybes sold his for $69 before either of you had a chance to try these mods out. I believe that you might actually be as fervent in their defense as you are in questioning them.
 
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Well Koji,

I'll reiterate my earlier statement: "Whether or not it's something you agree with," ... it was, nonetheless a fairly level-headed recommendation.

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To also quote myself in boldface for emphasis Mr. Rock, "If you don't like the idea, or don't want to try them that is completely cool of course, but denigrating other people's positive testimonials of them or other people's desire to try them just because you think your AT is better is kind of lame IMHO." but believe it or not, I have come to respect your opinion and do provide that you (generally - edit :))provide good information (albeit sometimes presented in your own inimitable fashion) here :)
 
kojdogg said:
See, again, is this just your experience? What makes this "truth"? A statistically valid sampling study of customer satisfaction may show some "truth", but otherwise I would imagine that you are reporting on anectdotal accounts or on your and Chessrock's experience. I have not seen these problems widely reported, but admittedly I may simply have not seen it.
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Koj...go back and read some of the older threads about the Oktava mics (2004/2005)...it was standard procedure back then to go into any GC and demo 5 or 6 MK319/MK219 mics in order to find one that "suited" your voice/instrument...that wasn't "my" experience, that was the typical Oktava "hope for a good one" hunt...no joke...very typical for those of us who believed that the "good" Oktava was worth the effort...and on top of that, GC frequently blew the mics out at $59-69 to heat up the hunt...if you don't believe me, go into any GC and talk to a sales person who has been there for 3-4 years and ask them if that sounds familiar...not unlike buying a guitar...trust me, not unique...the elusive "good" Oktava $69 mic was like the "holy grail" back a few years...fa real...and while you're searching the archives, try and find a thread where Chessrock and I agreed on anything...now that's a quest even more evasive than finding the "good" Oktava mic...;)
 
Wasn't 2004/2005 the height of GC's sales of Chinese counterfeit Oktava microphones? Have you read the story on that?
 
kojdogg said:
I believe that the stock Oktava's problems may not be just around Quality Control, but rather around fundamental design problems with their physical construction (headbasket acoustic issues and body resonance) and then cost cutting measures in circuit board components which were exacerbated by extraneous features (poorly designed pads and high pass filters). My experience and the experience of others who have had these mods is that Michael Joly's work remedies these problems and makes these mics special. This is a very similar philosophy to the one that Dave Royer took when conceiving of his Royer mod to the MXL 2001-- that the capsule was decent, but powered completely inadequately by a flawed circuit.
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...truth is, the history of Oktava is riddled with "substituting" what components are on hand during the manufacturing process...I'm sure Mr. Joly will testify to there being a reasonable variation of components used to manufacture the same model mic in the case of the Russian mics...different from the typical Chinese condenser, which may have inferior quality components, but at least there's a reasonable consistancy to the design integrity of the particular model...

...I think that those of you who are just now "discovering" the Oktava mics due to Oktavamod's excellent modding/rebuilding are actually a "little late to the dance"...many of us who remember the quest for the evasive "good" Oktava have different thoughts...there's a reason why Phil(good) has to dig those Oktavas out of his closet to give them another listen...;)
 
kidvybes said:
...truth is, the history of Oktava is riddled with "substituting" what components are on hand during the manufacturing process...I'm sure Mr. Joly will testify to there being a reasonable variation of components used to manufacture the same model mic in the case of the Russian mics...different from the typical Chinese condenser, which may have inferior quality components, but at least there's a reasonable consistancy to the design integrity of the particular model...

...I think that those of you who are just now "discovering" the Oktava mics due to Oktavamod's excellent modding/rebuilding are actually a "little late to the dance"...many of us who remember the quest for the evasive "good" Oktava have different thoughts...there's a reason why Phil(good) has to dig those Oktavas out of his closet to give them another listen...;)
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The people posting testimonials here, on message boards like Gearslutz and TOMB aren't talking about 2005 dude, they're posting about the mics they have now and they (myself included) really seem to like them.
Sorry if you "filled your dance card" before Oktavamodding became an option ;)

Edit: <sigh> I'm bowing out at that. Well, there's many unsolicited soundclips and testimonials from end users here and elsewhere for anyone who cares to listen. Thanks to all for a lovely debate.
 
kojdogg said:
Wasn't 2004/2005 the height of GC's sales of Chinese counterfeit Oktava microphones? Have you read the story on that?
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...yeah, of course, but this quest for the "good" Oktava preceeded that by a couple of years...GC had already dumped the majority of the Russian products and the US distributor cooked up that mess to keep the orders coming from his best retailer...and the funny thing about it was that there was some discussion about the fact that the Chinese Oktavas had a more consistant QC factor...but in order to bring the mics in at a price that would please the buyers at GC, the design was compromised by the Chinese manufacturer...there were a number of threads discussing the comparisons of the Russian/Chinese versions...so maybe it was more like 2003...but I remember dragging one of my vocalists down to GC to sing into these mics...and you have to understand that at that time my reference point was my MXL V67g and my Behringer B2...get the picture?...;)
 
kojdogg said:
IIRC it was the MK-012's and the MK-319s that were faked.
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...and the tube version Mk2500 I think...power supplies were also bogus...

...Koj...I'm not knocking the modded trend...you're taking my comments as being argumentative, but I'm just saying that the Oktava mics of a few years ago were extremely inconsistant, most being rather poor...certainly a great candidate for modding since the capsules were considered quite good...

...I have one of Royer's MA200 prototypes (built using ADK capsules as you mentioned) as well as a revised Royer modded MXL 2001 by Joel Cameron of Rascal Audio...both great little modded mics, considering how unimpressive the original MXL 2001 was...

...I just never liked the stock MK319...but I haven't tried the more recently manufactured version...my reference is the original Russian made units that were sold by GC back a few years...
 
kidvybes said:
...there's a reason why Phil(good) has to dig those Oktavas out of his closet to give them another listen...;)
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All I know is that I tracked some vocals about 3-4 years ago with stock 319's (bought about 7 years ago) and they were smoother and fuller sounding than the same tracks we had recorded 6 months before in another studio using a Blue Blueberry mic. I have since modified the mics with some of Michael's mods but haven't tracked anything yet since I've been busy buying up tube mics and modding them or building my own from scratch. I can tell you that if the MJ mods are an improvement, as most testimonials will attribute, then they seriously get moved up to contenders with the world class market. In my humble opinion, of course.

I seriously think I'd like to just hand over the 319's to Michael Joly and have him work his magic the right way.
 
kojdogg said:
To also quote myself in boldface for emphasis Mr. Rock, "If you don't like the idea, or don't want to try them that is completely cool of course, but denigrating other people's positive testimonials of them or other people's desire to try them just because you think your AT is better is kind of lame IMHO."
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Who said anything about AT, and what does that even have to do with this thread? As for people's opinions about this stuff ... yea, cool ... you like the mic. Party on

The only thing I ever questioned was the logic in comparing two things in such vastly different price brackets. That, I believe, is pretty "lame." As valuable as you might think it is ... I've just seen it all through the years, and it's just always bad news. The threads always end the same way, and it's rarely, if ever, any good. Go and do a search on the U87 versus C1 threads if you want any examples. :D

It's pretty much been shown, time and again around here, that the threads comparing mics that are more similar to one another in price and quality ... just generally tend to be far more valuable and productive. And that's based on what has historically been true on this board -- not just my own personal opinion. And if you can't tell the (rather obvious differences) between a smokin' good microphone, and a doctored up Guitar-Center reject ... well, then that's your problem, I'm afraid. Now I'm not totally closed to the idea that they can be improved on, or that they can have their uses ... but the whole U47 comparison isn't even fair to the Oktava. You're not really giving it a fair enough shake.

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chessrock said:
The only thing I ever questioned was the logic in comparing two things in such vastly different price brackets. That, I believe, is pretty "lame." As valuable as you might think it is ... I've just seen it all through the years, and it's just always bad news. The threads always end the same way, and it's rarely, if ever, any good. Go and do a search on the U87 versus C1 threads if you want any examples. :D
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The big difference is the willingness to post soundclips not once, but repeatedly. It's not just hype or ad copy. How many C1 vs U87 thread have soundclips linked to them? I find it rather astounding that you repeatedly gloss over this difference. If it were just rhetoric and hype, I would completely agree with you, but it's not-- people can listen for themselves and not just take my word, the poster's word our yours.

chessrock said:
Who said anything about AT, and what does that even have to do with this thread? As for people's opinions about this stuff ... yea, cool ... you like the mic. Party on.
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It's stuff you said in the other Oktavamod thread. Other people's opinions are just as valid as your own Chessrock-- we're talking about something somewhat subjective here. As I stated there, you can't really establish objective truth on inherently subjective issues anyway. I try to be very careful about putting anything out there that is my opinion, as my opinion not as "truth". Party on Garth.
Otherwise, you've posted multiple times in these threads bashing your old, unmodified MK-319 which is, IMHO, philosophically similar about what you're saying about keeping comparisons in line (roughly analogous to someone comparing a Lexus to a Rolls Royce, and for you to chime in and say that the Toyota that you owned four years ago sucked). I hate to have to point out the obvious, but the posts about Oktavamods have been comparing Oktavamodded mics, not stock ones.

chessrock said:
It's pretty much been shown, time and again around here, that the threads comparing mics that are more similar to one another in price and quality ... just generally tend to be far more valuable and productive. And that's based on what has historically been true on this board -- not just my own personal opinion. And if you can't tell the (rather obvious differences) between a smokin' good microphone, and a doctored up Guitar-Center reject ... well, then that's your problem, I'm afraid. Now I'm not totally closed to the idea that they can be improved on, or that they can have their uses ... but the whole U47 comparison isn't even fair to the Oktava. You're not really giving it a fair enough shake..
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Again, the big difference (in my opinion-- again, I'm not going to repeatedly equate my opinion with as truth) is people actually having access to the mics they are comparings the Oktavas too. This makes it a completely different thing IMO to the myriad of U87 vs. C1 threads. Again, this is not ad copy, but the work of happy users who are doing this purely because they want to. On his site you can listen to multiple comparisons of the modded Oktavas to Neumann U47's, U48's, of the modded ribbons to Coles, etc.
Are there differences? Yes of course. Do they justify a price difference of thousands of dollars? That is the question people are asking themselves and putting out to the communities on these message boards.

Oh incidentally, I'm sorry for the "lame" and "tantrum" comments as I can see they bothered you a bit :) I am also flattered that you looked up my name somewhere. :)
 
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kojdogg said:
The big difference is the willingness to post soundclips not once, but repeatedly.
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I'm still looking for the first one.

Hmmm. I'm looking right at the initial post that Omtaystick started this thread with ... and I'm failing to see the sound clip. Oh yea, that's because there isn't one.


It's stuff you said in the other Oktavamod thread.
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Which, amazingly enough ... isn't in this thread.

Other people's opinions are just as valid as your own Chessrock--
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Which has pretty much been my point all along ... but I'll repeat just in case you missed it. Whether or not you agree ... it was still a pretty level-headed response. Even for me. I made a point that has some validity to it. Subjective judgements as to the quality of that response are certainly open to debate - just like the sound of mics. You're comparing a really cheap mic with a really nice and expensive one. Some people will find fault with this ... some will find it pointless ... and I will not fault anyone for feeling that way. And because of that, I think it's worthy of at least a footnote. :D Far from being a "tantrum" as you put it ... or howling at the moon or whatever. It's a valid and level-headed point. Thank you.

On the same token ... I never said your point wasn't valid or well thought-out either. I don't agree with it, and I still think it's kind of pointless :D ... but at the same time, I don't think you're crazy for having your opinions ... or that you're "throwing a tantrum" when you express them.

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chessrock said:
I'm still looking for the first one.

Hmmm. I'm looking right at the initial post that Omtaystick started this thread with ... and I'm failing to see the sound clip. Oh yea, that's because there isn't one. .
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Try the Oktavamod site www.oktavamod.com there are a number of them there if you are so inclined.
http://oktavamod.com/audio.html
Also there are numerous other threads here, on Gearslutz and on the TOMB where you can hear linked samples. Not particularly hard to find if you're actually looking. Michael Joly has posted a few threads here relatively recently of links to sites where comparisons have been made as well.

chessrock said:
Which, amazingly enough ... isn't in this thread.
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Shocking. Dude-- it's like 9 threads down in this forum. You're the one directing me to look years back for threads on C1s vs U87s (which believe me, I have seen plenty of).

chessrock said:
Which has pretty much been my point all along ... but I'll repeat just in case you missed it. Whether or not you agree ... it was still a pretty level-headed response. Even for me. I made a point that has some validity to it. Subjective judgements as to the quality of that response are certainly open to debate - just like the sound of mics. You're comparing a really cheap mic with a really nice and expensive one. Some people will find fault with this ... some will find it pointless ... and I will not fault anyone for feeling that way. And because of that, I think it's worthy of at least a footnote. :D Far from being a "tantrum" as you put it ... or howling at the moon or whatever. It's a valid and level-headed point. Thank you.

On the same token ... I never said your point wasn't valid or well thought-out either. I don't agree with it, and I still think it's kind of pointless :D ... but at the same time, I don't think you're crazy for having your opinions ... or that you're "throwing a tantrum" when you express them.
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If I missed your point I apologize, but I certainly believe that you missed mine. I don't think I did miss your point though FWIW. Your point, as I've seen it, has drifted from something like why would anyone want to bother modding these "Fischer Price mics," because the stock one that you had was not good, to people shouldn't compare these mics to much higher priced mics, which IMHO is a far more defensible point, but still one I don't agree with.

My Point:
Some will find these kinds of comparisons pointless and fault with it for sure. You have made it abundantly clear that you feel that way. Conversely, some will find it immensely valuable. I am arguing not that their assertions are correct, but simply that it's a good thing to have the comparisons made-- that people should share their impressions and experiences and that this is a very good thing. People can compare whatever they like. Some people will always prefer the sound of an SM-57 on a guitar cab over a Royer, but I don't think anyone would discourage a comparison of those two sounds.

For the record, I never compared the two mics-- I merely noted the fact that it has been done many times by others. I wouldn't make those comparisons as I don't have any Neumanns lying around.
 
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Great-- diligent work. It's very fortunate that GC doesn't sell them anymore. Again and not to further belabor the issue, the recent threads as far as I can see (notably this one) have been formed around people's impressions of modern Oktavamodded mics, not around people's impressions of stock mics from 4-6 years ago.
 
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