Modded Oktava vs u47

Thanks for the useful info, Michael, but I feel like you're dancing around the edge of my question. :)

To be specific (for those of us that bought the GC mics not supplied with frequency response graphs), do you have any experience or information, objective or subjective, positive or negative, that these mics, once modified, are any different than the "mainstream" Oktava mics?...

This is from some information he used to have on his site:
"Over the several years I have seen a 50:1 ratio of Russian to Chinese mics. Most likely the mic you own is a Russian model. However, the quality control of the Chinese copies of the Oktava MK-319 is very good and quite consistent. But the Chinese capsules are missing some of that special lower-midrange magic that people have called "Neumann-esque". The proximity effect Q, amplitude and center frequency is not as sharp, pronounced and advantageously located in the frequency spectrum as with the original Russian-built mics. In a way, these copies are "flatter" but not as "flattering". They actually work pretty well for recording acoustic guitar when you want large diaphragm bigness but also want to avoid some of the boom of proximity effect. Because my acoustical and electronic modifications occur outside the capsule physically and after the capsule electronically, they will work on the Chinese-manufactured mics. All of my modifications result in a mic that is more clear and present with better HF extension and lower transient smearing - whether it started life in Tula Russia or the People's Republic of China."

Hope this is okay Michael-- I had this stored in a .pdf and figured I'd pitch in. :)
 
Thanks for the useful info, Michael, but I feel like you're dancing around the edge of my question. :)

To be specific (for those of us that bought the GC mics not supplied with frequency response graphs), do you have any experience or information, objective or subjective, positive or negative, that these mics, once modified, are any different than the "mainstream" Oktava mics? In other words, have you noticed any of the widely touted QC issues in these mics, particularly in the capsule construction or frequency response?

Do you do any testing, once modified, other than go/no go? Do you test any before and after parameters of the mics?

Sorry to be such a PITA. If you don't want to answer, no problem. :D

Well, I think you had several questions, my apologies if I didn't answer them clearly. I'll step through these in order.

Q: To be specific (for those of us that bought the GC mics not supplied with frequency response graphs), do you have any experience or information, objective or subjective, positive or negative, that these mics, once modified, are any different than the "mainstream" Oktava mics?

A: I'm a bit confused, are you asking if a later-period (no graph) Guitar Center Oktava MK-219 or 319, once modified, is any different than a stock "mainstream" Oktava mic or a modified "mainstream" Oktava mic? Since I'm not sure what your intended meaning is, all I can say is that a full suite of modifications to an authentic 219 or 319 is going to produce a better sounding mic - no matter when it was purchased.

Q: In other words, have you noticed any of the widely touted QC issues in these mics, particularly in the capsule construction or frequency response?

A: In my opinion the "widely touted QC issues" are really more of an oft-repeated Internet legend than fact. The legend has its origins in Scott Dorsey's comments about parts substitutions in the MK-012. There have been no variations in MK-219 capsule construction from the mid 80's through the most recent production runs. However, with over 90,000 MK-219 and MK-319 mics in use there does exist the possibility that if 219s or 319s were sold through Guitar Center without a frequency response chart AND if some of the capsules had deviations from spec, then yes, there is a possibility that some listeners may have heard out-of-spec Oktava mics. But in my opinion, this would be a very low percentage of microphones.

At the beginning of my business relationship with Oktava I requested they build me two special mics so I could evaluate both "high resonance" and "low resonance" tuning in diaphragms. These were presented to me with frequency response graphs. The mic with the "low resonance" tuned diaphragm resembled an SM-57 spectral response - peaking at 5-7kHz then a drop-off beyond that. It sounded that way to the ear as well. I have never heard a stock 219 or 319 with anything close to the sort of HF loss heard in the mic I intentionally asked to be tuned to a low resonance.

Q: Do you do any testing, once modified, other than go/no go? Do you test any before and after parameters of the mics?

A. In my Premium Electronics mods I bias each FET for minimum THD with a spectrum analyzer at a level that represents the maximum intended SPL at the capsule. The 2nd harmonic distortion component is usually 12-16 dB lower than a stock mic. I bench test and verify noise floor which, post-mod, is lower in the critical 2kHz band than it is at 150Hz. And, like Klaus Heyne, I use a trusted set of headphones and my own speaking voice reciting phrases chosen to evaluate sibilance, HF extension, midrange clarity / phase integrity and proximity effect. Having heard nearly one thousand stock and then modified Oktava mics I have a pretty good feel for both the qualities exhibited by the stock mics and the improvements possible through the mods.
 
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Hope this is okay Michael-- I had this stored in a .pdf and figured I'd pitch in. :)

The quote Koji supplied was written by me for an old pdf price list about two years ago - I don't think I have it online anymore. At this point I have only seen a very small number of Chinese-copied MK-319s. And I was referring to mics that appear to be identical the Tula-built MK-319 - down to the Bakelite, HF resonator-equipped capsules.

But, I've come to believe there are two types of MK-319 copies - the obviously fake "blue-black" model, and a model that looks identical (externally) to a real 319.

But to get back a bit closer to the title of this thread "Modded Oktava vs U47"...

...I'd like to say that with one exception, the client-supplied clips of modified Oktava mics on my web site and on external web sites were made with existing mics. In other words - the modified mics being compared to Neumann U47 FET, and U47 / 48 tube mics are not new "pedigreed" Oktava mics. I simply modified the client's existing mic - no matter what the date of manufacture - and returned it. I hardly ever know if a mic was purchased through Guitar Center or any number of other dealers.
 
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Michael J - if you would care to address this, I for one would be interested in your thoughts. Have you found any significant or consistent differences in build or "modifyability" between the "modern" 219/319 capsules or electronics versus the "GC blowout" mics?

My mic came from GC in Indianapolis. $69.00, no frequency chart, no mic clip, and a scrap of gift wrapping paper inside the black zippered pouch. This leads me to believe that someone may have recieved it as a gift, didn't like it, and returned it. I liked the sound of it stock, and now since the mods it is a thing of beauty. (and yes, I'm still smiling) :)
 
... And, like Klaus Heyne, I use a trusted set of headphones and my own speaking voice reciting phrases chosen to evaluate sibilance, HF extension, midrange clarity / phase integrity and proximity effect. Having heard nearly one thousand stock and then modified Oktava mics I have a pretty good feel for both the qualities exhibited by the stock mics and the improvements possible through the mods.
Thanks for your thoughtful responses. To pin this down further, I guess my question now is: in this testing you mention above, have you noticed much mic to mic variability, either in the stock, or most importantly, in the modded mics? That is, can you tell the difference between two randomly chosen, end product modified individual mics, and, if so, how significant is the difference?
 
Maybe I'll see if I can get access to the U47 and do it again with original material.

Oh for pete's sake, just post the covers. Nobody in a million years is going to come after you for posting a cover of a song from 1952 on a recording geek message board.
 
Thanks for your thoughtful responses. To pin this down further, I guess my question now is: in this testing you mention above, have you noticed much mic to mic variability, either in the stock, or most importantly, in the modded mics? That is, can you tell the difference between two randomly chosen, end product modified individual mics, and, if so, how significant is the difference?

I have noticed no variability from nominal that would prevent any stock MK-219 or 319 from becoming a better mic once modified.

Any differenences I have noticed are minor capsule frequency response variations - the sort of differences one encounters when comparing several different U47 mics or U87 mics to each other. They all sound basically like the particular model's "template", but are all subtly different.

The tight-tolerance parts I use and my individual bias and gain trimming brings all OktavaMod Premium Electronics equipped mics to within 0.25 dB of gain spec.
 
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Oh for pete's sake, just post the covers. Nobody in a million years is going to come after you for posting a cover of a song from 1952 on a recording geek message board.

Actually, I think Alberto Gonzalas has been re-assigned to just this sort of thing. :cool:
 
let's hear some clips..

Oh for pete's sake, just post the covers. Nobody in a million years is going to come after you for posting a cover of a song from 1952 on a recording geek message board.

Most likely the only thing that would happen is you would receive a very polite email from xy & z esq.; Which would basically be some permutation of a "Cease and Desist" request. (*highly unlikely for at least the reason Whoppysnorp so eloquently stated). Then simply cease and desist if you get creeped out.
Say you didn't "cease" and/or "desist" and they are really out to get you and proceed. THEY would have to ESTABLISH, within a reasonable doubt, they had been "DAMAGED".

Damaged? Ha Ha Ha .. Hell, we're talking about their freaking song.. what the heck do they care?

"Now shut up and give us your Wonka Bars!!" :D
 
If I were a business person, and I was posting comparisons of my microphone directly against another mic ... I don't know if it would be possible to do it completely unbiased.

Not that I would deliberately try and sabotage the process ... just that I might be more inclined to feature the sound clips that might cast my microphone in the best possible light ... provided I had more than one clip to choose from, that is. :D

As a consumer, I would tend to trust impartial / unbiased sources first, and unfortunatley, the few unbiased sources of which I am familiar ... haven't been as favorable towards the Oktavas, modded or unmodded. Just one guy's experience.

.
 
...
As a consumer, I would tend to trust impartial / unbiased sources first, and unfortunatley, the few unbiased sources of which I am familiar ... haven't been as favorable towards the Oktavas, modded or unmodded. Just one guy's experience.

.

The problem is that you're neither impartial nor unbiased towards Oktavamod. You're holding your negative experience with a stock Oktava prejudicially against Oktavamodded mics, which are completely different animals in my experience-- just as Charter Oak microphones are very different than stock Alcatron microphones (CO uses Chinese manufactured capsules, mic bodies and power supplies in their mics and replaces everything in between, so I believe this is a good analogy to make).

If you tried one and could report on your experience, I think your opinion might have some value here.
 
i love incredulity!

Chess .. your incredulity is refreshing, healthy in debate and welcomed (at least by me.. and stated without a fawning obsequiousness.) :cool:

Agreed. As a business person .. he should be biased.

However, that being said, the only way of handling these types of questions is to employ a "double blind" test. Where no one involved with the test actually knows which product is which - meaning you get some schlub to set up the mic that is not invested in the outcome - the engineer does not know nor the administrator of the test. The candidate clips (half dozen or so per test) would be randomly selected at the end users' invocation of the comparison "test". This pool of clips would be different takes under the same conditions (the collection invariably would include those that are not as "optimum" as those that would be "hand selected" - for all mics in the experiment for that matter). Additionally, what would be more helpful would be the introduction of a "control" for the experiment. Though, the object of the exercise is to compare "kickass mic a" to "mod mic" .. which is ok for unscientific comparisons.. but not really useful without an adequate "control". It would be a good idea to ad a third group of clips (of course utilizing the same "double blind" technique) .. this control should be a mic which most folks would be familiar - say, an SM57 (or the un-modded version of the particular Oktava being tested may actually be the best control). Now, anyone checking out the "shoot out" has no clue what is what .. the folks at OktavaMod (or whomever) would not know and could not control which clip is "randomly loaded in" upon the end users' initial "click". The list of correct mics to clip would be emailed to the end users upon their request.

That would render a more accurate and scientific, thus, unbiased result.

As a consumer, I would tend to trust impartial / unbiased sources first, and unfortunatley, the few unbiased sources of which I am familiar ... haven't been as favorable towards the Oktavas, modded or unmodded.

Hey, me too! :D

In the absence of such a pure double-blind scientific test - we are debating in a vacuum employing illogical gratuitous assertions and/or anecdotal evidence - which may be helpful - but not scientific. Please share with me where I may find the "other side of the coin". The truth is the whole.
 
What a bunch of high-falutin' nonsense. The test results that I am concerned with, is that my modded Oktava records the sources that I record at least as good as a U47. That's the bottom line for me. And BTW, I had 2 other people listen to the clips this past week-end. One of these people has recording experience, the other does not. Both preferred the Oktava tracks. More to smile about. :)
 
My complements to your thesaurus promesis.
Until Consumer Reports decides to start performing tests on microphones, I guess the informed consumer will be left to comparing specifications (which certainly can be misleading) and counting on end-user generated comparisons. The point I've made several times in this thread and in other Oktavamod-related threads is that there are numerous end-user generated comparisons with clips available if you are motivated to find them (via google, or your search engine of choice) and there are many more unsolicited testimonials from end users-- these are not examples of advertising copy rhetoric or the words of reviewers commissioned by trade magazines who may be receiving money from the maker of the products or their competitors, but the words and work of people who pay for and love these mics.
 
A number of my clients have been so impressed with their OktavaMod mics vs. their Neumann mics they've sent comparison samples. I don't control the test methodology of people using my mics - I just try to make people happy with my work.

To make it easy to listen to some of the shoot outs OktavaMod has been involved in, I've collected a few here. Folks can decide if they want to talk about what they hear, or if they want to debate audio test methodology.


U47 FET / OktavaMod MK-319 Floating Dome PE

Male singing voice & acoustic guitar recorded by Rick Asher Keefer at Sea-West Studios, Hawaii. Single take, one track per mic, mics separated 4" at mouth level angled slightly downward and inward. Rick said "The two mics are VERY Close ... And Klaus Heyne really worked hard to get my U47 FET to sound BEAUTIFUL".

U47FET
MK319DPE


U48 / MKL-2500 Blind Test
Which is the Neumann U48, the OktavaMod MKL-2500 cathode follower and the OktavaMod MKL-2500 plate load mic?

Vocal 1 / Vocal 2 / Vocal 3


Neumann M149 vs. OktavaMod MK-219 PE

Jitendra Ramprakash, New Delhi-based voice-trainer & poet, recites an excerpt from the 20th century Indian classic 'Andhere Mein' ("In The Dark")

Male speaking voice, Neumann M149
Male speaking voice, OktavaMod MK-219 PE


Neumann-Gefell UM57 vs. OktavaMod MK-319

From the Czech Republic, OktavaMod client Lukas Hajek sent an A / B test of his Neumann-Gefell UM57 and his MK-319 PE mic. The UM57, introduced in 1957, was a multi-pattern vacuum tube mic manufactured by the Eastern branch of the Neumann family. It uses the Neumann M7 capsule with PVC diaphragm.

Neumann-Gefell UM57 - male vocal

OktavaMod MK-319 Floating Dome PE - male vocal

Neumann-Gefell UM57 - male speech

OktavaMod MK-319 Floating Dome PE - male speech


(3) U47 mics, Lawson L47, Wunder Audio CM7, AKG C414B/XLS & OktavaMod MK-219 w Premium Electronics

http://www.recordwithbarron.com/new-47-mic-shootout/
 
here here!

My complements to your thesaurus promesis.

Thanks I think. :rolleyes:
Actually I speak like that and - believe it or not, don't have a thesaurus. :D
I employ a particular vocabulary to convey a level of discourse with which I am the most comfortable. My compliments to your dictionary.. :D

Until Consumer Reports decides to start performing tests on microphones, I guess the informed consumer will be left to comparing specifications (which certainly can be misleading) and counting on end-user generated comparisons. The point I've made several times in this thread and in other Oktavamod-related threads is that there are numerous end-user generated comparisons with clips available if you are motivated to find them (via google, or your search engine of choice) and there are many more unsolicited testimonials from end users-- these are not examples of advertising copy rhetoric or the words of reviewers commissioned by trade magazines who may be receiving money from the maker of the products or their competitors, but the words and work of people who pay for and love these mics.

Absolutely!
(maybe "diligent" would be a better choice than the usage of the past-tense "informed" since the consumer has not yet reviewed the specs in your example)

But, hell's yeah. I have been scouring all over the place for this stuff .. great stuff everywhere. Whether or not there are similarities between the mics is up for debate and the debate is centered around anecdotal experiences - which is still an extremely vital component in decision-taking.

It is totally reasonable to think and expect that the simple act of replacing x (poor quality) parts with y ("premium" quality) parts will render a better quality summation. I think as odd as it is, the words "expect" and "reasonable" are in the preceding sentence. Which, I think was Chessrock's initially retort. His was a concern for "unreasonable expectations" .. a valid concern .. "He whom expects nothing shall not be disappointed." BF.

There are no shortages of anecdotal "hell yeahs" from folks about their mods. I believe them! In fact I have two original MC 012-01 that may be out the door soon to MJ. What I want (and that is to be an "informed consumer") is "the other side of the coin". Chessrock may have access to evidence that he could share with us. I don't expect to be influenced by him in this regard - we know where he stands vis-a-vis "Fischer-Price" - and that is cool with me. As far as I am concerned the debate is still open. Why were the "mods" unacceptable and unimpressive by this - as of yet - mythological dismissive population? What is the science behind their opinions? I want to know - the truth is the whole.

In short, if sending my mic to get modded for $80 improves the quality by an amount commensurate with the costs.. why not?
I would expect nothing other than a slight increase in quality anyway. That's what I would have paid for. If it sounds *much* better than my expectation .. then I would prefer the big surprise and celebrate then.

Keep all expectations in check.. in all aspects of your life .. if possible, expect nothing. Then all things good will be a wonderful surprise! :D

Great thread - all the solid opinions.
Thanks for suffering my long winded and superfluous posts!
Mostly thanks to MJ and his ability to provide a product and service that has many people excited - ;)
 
How 'bout the unhappy ones? Have they sent similar samples? And if so, why don't you post them also? :D

.

Why don't you post your comparison samples of Oktavamod mics vs. other mics? Ah yes, because you have not made any, nor have you used these mics, which makes what you're doing simple, uninformed, "player hating"

Excited users posting comparison clips and making bold comparisons may reflect flawed methodology (again, it would be very difficult to make a perfect comparison for all sorts of reasons (e.g. you can't have two microphones occupying the exact same physical space in relation to the sound source being recorded)) and are obviously inherently subjective, but they are well-intentioned. There is nothing sinister going on here.

Criticizing something you've never tried simply for the sake of hating on it, is just plain ignorant by the very literal definition of the word.
 
c'mon folks..

Criticizing something you've never tried simply for the sake of hating on it, is just plain ignorant by the very literal definition of the word.

.. um ok. let's see.. :

Criticizing something you've never tried..

well, I have never raped a child..

.. simply for the sake of hating on it,

I hate child rapists..

is just plain ignorant by the very literal definition of the word.

That makes me ignorant..? hmm.

I don't really follow that reasoning, however, do you assume that OktavaMod has 100% happy customers?

What is wrong with requesting this?
Do you believe it is impossible to formulate a reasonable question about subjects which one is ignorant about?
It seems a totally reasonable question and one we should all ask ourselves whenever we are trying to determine a course of action - in all aspects of interactivity. It was "unreasonable" to ask (if they had clips of folks that were unsatisfied) as to why they were not posted on the business site.. why would they .. why should they? I think folks are quite capable of understanding the concept of promotion. We are also quite capable of thinking critically .. aren't we?

There is no insidious motive behind the genuine excitement shared by satisfied patrons. Why would there be? These folks are happy.. they want to share it. That's great.. but why would any one (those happy included) object to simply trying to illicit other points of view - again, provided they indeed exist.

Let's all try to keep this in a more academic setting as opposed to resorting to personal attacks - I think we all could benefit from this discourse. :D
 
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