Mixdown session - limiter questions

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BriGreentea

New member
Couple of things (adobe audition). Keeping the mulititrack in the -6 to -3 range I've been making tests of cd's on my mixdowns doing different things. I've been importing a mild use of a multiband compressor which helps clarity, hiss reduction, messing around with the channel mixer and the stereo maxing setting and the mastering section that consists of elements of shelving and peaking the eq, studio reverb, widener, exciter. Also has a strange setting of a "loudness maximizer" which to me is not much different then using the boost part of the limiter. I also learned with this much more then 10-15% doesn't sound very good and get distortion. From there the last step would be the hard limiter setting it to -.01 with the boost at 6 db. I tried messing with the boost getting it past 6 and then come into the distortion part again.

My goal is to get the cd as loud as possible without clipping or distortion but is decent but I don't understand what tricks are there to make the final product fairly loud. The only way I figured out is getting the boost input louder but then the waveform looks like a brick and sounds more distorted.

Then the final thing is I've seen many people on mastering do the limiter last before saving the file. So for the hell of it I tried the limiter second to last then tried the mastering function last. Sounded good, then compared sounds to my previous saved file. Seems like it sounds louder and better but I haven't saved it into a cd to make that type of determination.

Another thing I haven't tried was someone said to normalize the file to -3 then limit. Does anyone do this?
 
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BriGreentea said:
Couple of things (adobe audition). Keeping the mulititrack in the -6 to -3 range I've been making tests of cd's on my mixdowns doing different things. I've been importing a mild use of a multiband compressor which helps clarity, hiss reduction, messing around with the channel mixer and the stereo maxing setting and the mastering section that consists of elements of shelving and peaking the eq, studio reverb, widener, exciter. Also has a strange setting of a "loudness maximizer" which to me is not much different then using the boost part of the limiter. I also learned with this much more then 10-15% doesn't sound very good and get distortion. From there the last step would be the hard limiter setting it to -.01 with the boost at 6 db. I tried messing with the boost getting it past 6 and then come into the distortion part again. ..snip
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After you take the Tour' dump all that stuff and start again with just a low ratio compressor and a limiter perhaps. Listening anew', see where the mix wants to go, what it might need. (The heck of a thing about 'mastering you own stuff is those questions, and the thought- 'if it needed it, why didn't we do it in the mix? ;)
Well actually you still can (go back to the mix.. and you may want to now that you start hearing it in this new context.

Hard smashing more or less causes 'distortions, and it changes all sorts of aspects of the sounds. It can flat out deny some of the sonic options you had in the other end of the dynamic range. It also compacts the mix so all sorts of 'stuff that was going on and/or 'blended back down in the mix is now up in your face.

You hear the phrase 'some tracks can survive being pushed better than others--

Another thing I haven't tried was someone said to normalize the file to -3 then limit. Does anyone do this?
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To me 'normalize is just a crude method of 'let's boost based on some stray peak that has nothing to do with where I want the gain/track to land.
Totally redundant to a gain or trim or fader or what have you before hitting the compressor or limiter.
 
mjbphotos said:
Oh god, yet another 'how do I make it loud' thread. :facepalm:
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:laughings: My first thought as well.

BriGreentea said:
My goal is to get the cd as loud as possible without clipping or distortion but is decent but I don't understand what tricks are there to make the final product fairly loud. The only way I figured out is getting the boost input louder but then the waveform looks like a brick and sounds more distorted.
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.....or you could get the finished tracks to a reasonable volume and let people use the volume control on there CD/MP3 Players to regulate how loud/low they want it to be. Making it as loud as possible will probably make it sound like shit and only make people turn it down or worse, OFF!
 
I don't think I've ever used normalize. I don't see much of a need for it.

I think you're over-complicating a pretty simple process. Mix your song then throw a mastering limiter on at the end to get it as loud as the big boys. Now to make it sound good as well as loud is a whole other issue. It's why mastering guys spend a whole lot of money on sexy gear and a whole lot of years learning how to use it. ;)

BriGreentea said:
Another thing I haven't tried was someone said to normalize the file to -3 then limit. Does anyone do this?
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You have to mix with loudness in mind to keep your music from getting destroyed as you add gain. At the old mastering studio I worked at, good mixes needed very subtle processing before the limiter.

I recommend using the limiter as the last processor in your chain. The EQ, multi-band, and widener should be used (in this case) to make it easier for you to make the track louder.
 
People these days DON'T use their volume controls and DO tend to listen in environments with loud background noises (in cars, on trains, walking down city streets, etc.). For this reason, once you've got your mix sounding great at a reasonable level with sufficient headroom, there's no reason not to "make it loud"...or at least as loud as commercial CDs. FYI, I have a similar problem doing tracks and FX for theatre use...an auditorium is a surprisingly loud place between air conditioner vents, audience members coughing or rattling sweet wrappers and the latest scourge of the sound guy...moving lights whirring and clattering away. Unless the dynamic range is pretty small, anything quiet will get lost.

I also use Audition. After the mix down process, I'd normalise to -0.1dBFS. At that point I'd use the Hard Limiter but this is where you have to use some judgement. Look at you track and see how many transient peaks there are keeping the normalise level down well below the -0.1dB level. Your goal is to limit away the worst of these but still leave some dynamic range in the music. If there's 2 or 3 peaks at the maximum and then a lot of levels at, say, -4 then limit to the same -0.1dB point and add 4dB of gain. Some experimentation might be necessary to get the best compromise on sound and loudness--used carefully the Audition hard limiter can be a useful tool...but it IS a bit of a blunt instrument.

Of course, you can take all the dynamics out of the music and leave your waveform looking like a solid rectangle--that'd be like a lot of commercial CDs.

One last thing...I make a point of keeping the original mix with headroom in case I want to try other things later--I save the limited version as a different name.

(Sits back waiting for the hate posts to start about joining the loudness war....)
 
Bobbsy said:
People these days DON'T use their volume controls and DO tend to listen in environments with loud background noises (in cars, on trains, walking down city streets, etc.).
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I'm sorry Bobbsy but that is the one of the most ridiculous statements I have read yet on this forum. The latter part of the sentence conflicts with the former. Clearly listening in an environment with loud background noises would cause people to use there volume controls. A loud CD wont be loud at low volume and at high volume will 9 times out of 10 be turned down (with a volume control) for being too loud.
 
I'm sorry Mr. Clean but there's no contradiction and your reply indicated you simply don't understand the unfortunate trends in music listening since the advent of the original Walkman.

People DON'T use their volume controls these days--they just criticise tracks that you and I might consider nicely mixed as being "too quiet". Okay, perhaps I should rephrase it as "people don't like to use their volume controls" if that makes you happier but the end result is the same.

The norm on virtually every commercial CD (other than classical and some folk) is for peaks right at 0dBFS. Since that's the (rather unfortunate) norm these days, nothing at that level is going to be turned down...but anything that might require being turned up will be considered quiet and, if the volume IS turned up then the next track will come in at ear-damaging levels.

As for loud listening environments, yeah, people adjust to drown out what's going on. Since an average city street or train is at around 80-85dBSPL this leads to listening at very high levels and also to not liking normal dynamic range since anything quiet gets lost. It also leads to listener fatigue causing people to listen too loud even when they don't need to and also to premature deafness but that's another discussion.

My point is that, for the purposes of the OP, normalising and hard limiting to very near 0dBFS is what he needs to do if he wants his material to be at a similar level to commercial recordings.

Please don't call me ridiculous when your understanding of acoustics and listening perception is clearly very rudimentary.
 
I'll never buy the "just turn up the volume" argument. Yeah, it sounds good on paper, but it's not realistic.

So, let me sse, you're listening to all these tunes that are coming at -12db(for example), and then Mr. Purist's song comes in at -22db, and you turn it up. Great, now the next "loud" song comes on and blows your head up. Even worse if you're listening to a song on your stereo in the living room while you're in the kitchen. You trun it up for Mr.Purists's track and then walk back into the kitchen. Next song comes on and blows up your living room stereo......and the cat.

It's just not realistic to say "just turn it up". Not so much becasue it doesn'tmake sense to turn it up. It's the next song that will kill you. I think there's nothing wrong with trying to get as much volume out of your finished track, even if it means a little compromise in the dynamics department.

Crank it!
 
I'm sorry but that is absolute trash. It is ridiculous to say people don't use their volume controls 'these days'. If you got into your car with a CD and it started blaring out at a volume your brain didn't want to hear you would turn it down. The very same way that if it was too low, you would turn it up. Also the same that if you were in your house, on a train, etc. It's a natural human reaction in our modern life to adjust the volume of everything we hear. Saying people don't like to use their volume controls is equally garbage. Millions of people use their volume controls every single day, from the TV to their phones to everything else with a volume control.

So regardless of how loud the tracks are before they're burnt to CD, volume will be adjusted to suit the listener be it too loud or low. Or are you the only person in the world that doesn't adjust volume and just listens at what volume you happen to be at when you press play?

It has nothing to do with my knowledge of the invention of the Walkman or my understanding of acoustics. It's about common sense and stating that 'people' don't use their volume controls or don't like to use their volume controls is without doubt, a ridiculous thing to say.
 
RAMI said:
I'll never buy the "just turn up the volume" argument. Yeah, it sounds good on paper, but it's not realistic.

So, let me sse, you're listening to all these tunes that are coming at -12db(for example), and then Mr. Purist's song comes in at -22db, and you turn it up. Great, now the next "loud" song comes on and blows your head up. Even worse if you're listening to a song on your stereo in the living room while you're in the kitchen. You trun it up for Mr.Purists's track and then walk back into the kitchen. Next song comes on and blows up your living room stereo......and the cat.

It's just not realistic to say "just turn it up". Not so much becasue it doesn'tmake sense to turn it up. It's the next song that will kill you. I think there's nothing wrong with trying to get as much volume out of your finished track, even if it means a little compromise in the dynamics department.

Crank it!
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I agree. Get a good loud mix, just don't squash the life out of it. I'm no purist and I like my mixes with volume. I'm not interested in getting overly loud CD's. A reasonable level will do for me. I don't care at all for the loudness war. The little I've read about it bores me to be fair.

Like Bobbsy said, you can have a good sounding -0.1dBS track with it being crunched to shit and sounding terrible.

But claiming people don't use their volume controls? Seriously?
 
You're being way too literal. Of course people will adjust the volume at the beginning of a CD (or DVD or TV show or whatever).

However, thhey are unwilling to "mess with the volume" to bring up the level of one quiet track and blame the track for being too quiet. They are also unwilling to listen carefully to the quiet bits, preferring to be "spoonfed" a very limited dynamic range at a relatively high level.

There are a number of studies about this phenomena and how it affects live sound mixing (as well as things like cinema and TV programmes) if you choose to do some Googling.
 
Bobbsy said:
They are unwilling to "mess with the volume" to bring up the level of one quiet track and blame the track for being too quiet. They are also unwilling to listen carefully to the quiet bits, preferring to be "spoonfed" a very limited dynamic range at a relatively high level.
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I get that, but claiming people DON'T use their volume control was a little bit far fetched, do you not think?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing and I agree with you on everything you have said, but for that one statement. I'm willing to bet my lumpy left testicle that volume control is the second most utilized function on any music device, in the world, after the >> Skip function.

Peace :thumbs up:
 
Nah that was the right one! :laughings:

I don't get into the whole Analog vs Digital. It's pointless really. To each their own :thumbs up:
 
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