MCI JH-416 Story...

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I think I'm going the route of getting some used Power One modules to power the JH-416...I found a great deal on six 24VDC 12A modules from a single source...they'd be about $300 shipped for all of them but they'd be great, beefy clean power for the console and relatively affordable considering what I'd likely pay for another set of the MCI power supplies, and then assuming they'd need some work. The Power One modules would just be wired back-to-back in pairs to create three bipolar supplies.

So that's what I'm thinkin'.

Comments?

12A overkill? Definitely for the lamp buss but I'd have the redundancy MCI intended with the three identical supplies...

[EDIT]

The Power One model number I'm lookin' at is F24-12-A

Tight regulation, low ripple and the recovery seems...really good...+/-0.02% deviation and 50ms recovery for a 50% load change... :eek:

I had no idea that you *could* go with a third-party route for a power supply like this!

Are you 100% sure that it'll put out the proper power lines that you need for the entire mixer? Will you be able to connect it properly?
 
You can go with a third party supply for ANYTHING so long as it meets the specification.

The power rails required for the JH-400 series are simple...basically three bipolar 24V supplies

Audio buss
Relay buss
Lamp buss

The lamp buss is throttled back to +/-21V to extend the life of the lamps. If I use six identical supplies to make three bipolar supplies then I'd just get some resistors inline with the lamp supply output to bring the voltage down to the 21V.

It'd actually be easier to wire up the Power One modules...no special connectors needed. Just straight cable with ring or spade terminals at both ends since the both the Power One module outputs and console inputs occur on screw-type barrier strips.

I'm 100% sure this would work, and would work great. I believe the Power One array would exceed the spec of the stock supplies for lower cost and much better availability and less complex interconnection.

Quieter too since the Power One modules are convection cooled.
 
I'm just gonna play devils advocate here for a sec ok cory? Actually your idea for the power supply is great. But i will bring up this one point. A buddy of mine who has been doing sound since the 60s has a saying............."Yesterdays technology solving tomorrow's problems today." In other words some of those old designers, techs, etc knew what they were doing and did stuff for a reason. Others just had to throw together a product for a price and did the best they could and accidently got a great sound. Before making the switch, see if anyone else has done a similar conversion and heard the board before/after...........
some of those old power supplies(I may hear some arguments on this)were part of the "sound" of the board. I am no expert........by anymeans but just throwing it out there. I have heard a few items with non original power supplies,etc.......some good, better, worse.
 
I understand your point for sure.

My goal is to meet or exceed the spec of the stock PSU's.

As far as I understand it, the power source doesn't directly effect the sound but of course has a paramount effect on the sound indirectly in that it powers all the doo-dads that drive the sound.

There are plenty of doo-dads on the JH-416 to characterize the audio. All I want the PSU's to do (and all the *should* do) is to provide adequate clean power, and by adequate I mean be of such construction as to have ample current overhead compared to the max demand of the console as well as have ample muscle to be able to respond quickly to transient demands. That's what a power supply does and is supposed to do; to be able to handle the static and dynamic loads of the powered device with aplomb and to do it with clean power. The doo-dads do all the rest (and in my case that would be a whole bunch of transformers, proprietary opamps and top quality variable resistors and switches and all the other passive components that support those devices)...what I'm saying is that if I were to go through the exercise and expense of tracking down the remaining stock supplies it wouldn't be because I think they are the only ones that can power the mixer in such a way as to ensure its character...I'd b doing it because the supply chassis is a cool design and they are up to the task and because they are the "proper" unit for the mixer. But there is plenty of regard for the Power One modules...and the specs are impressive, the cost is excellent, and the availability is obviously good. I wouldn't just pick any old supply...one other reason I'm interested in the Power One modules, at least the models I'm looking at, is because the regulation circuits are discrete...no regulator IC's which can be noisy.

The folks at MCI certainly DID know what they were doing. I'm not trying to nor expecting to improve the console with my choice of power source. But it is a matter of time and cost. A stock supply will likely need some work...much less likely with the Power One modules.

If the stock supploes are part of the mixer's "sound" then all I have to do is to make sure the replacement supplies meet or exceed the spec of the stock supply.

In cases where an aftermarket supply changes the sound could only be if the stock supply was inadequate or failing and if the aftermarket supply changed the sound for the "worse" it just means that the operator liked what that non-ideal stock supply did to/for the doo-dads. It happens. "Good" sound is in the ears of the beholder and is also dependent on the source material, environment and everything else in the audio chain.

What I'm saying is it is completely reasonable that a less-than-ideal transient response of a power supply may do things to the sound that in that symbiotic system (power supply and device) WORKS (and maybe not for all but at least for some)...you could put an aftermarket supply in place and take ten listeners and get ten different opinions about how the new one sounds.

That's why I'm just sticking to fundamentals on this. I know that the stock MCI supplies were purpose built and adequately so. So I'm looking for something of the same spec or better and it shouldn't change the "sound", and at best help the console to do what it does better. I'm *definitely* not a "its newer it must be better" kind of guy and I'm careful about decisions I make in that regard as of late. If I WAS that kind of guy I wouldn't have a 40 year old tape machine and mixer, but there HAVE been certain improvements in certain components over the years.

So I'm making my decisions based on a number of metrics.
 
oh, i know you are making pretty "sound" pun intended....lol decisions cory.
i was just making the point specially for possible newbies to analog that newer ain't always better...........
should have stated that in my original post. I've just seen alot of people mod stuff for the sake of modding.......
sounds like it should work! I just love to play devils advocate sometimes.........but not in a negative way! just make people think!
It's your mixer and the ultimate choice is yours!
 
Heheh...NICE pun...

Hey, shame on me if I ever give the impression that its not a good idea or unwelcome to play devil's advocate with me...

I feel like I am constantly venturing out into uncharted territory, and I often am, so a little "hey, um...dija think about/didja know about/what about...?" is always a good thing.

And YES I agree COMPLETELY regarding taking caution at the urge to purge the old and make something "better". I have often made the mistake of thinking X-Y-Z needs to be done to a piece of gear "just because" when I haven't even gotten familiar with it first. I've been swept up in the contemporary ideology that stuff needs to be fixed before it is broken, and/or that there are paint-by-numbers thing that you just do to all gear because it is "better". I feel there are very few sure-fire things to do that bring a certain guaranteed result. So much of it is a case-by-case issue and heeding moderation is important. Opinions of the internet can be dangerous because much more often than not much of the important contextual information is missing, and also because everybody's ears are different. I'm sure there are opinions that differ greatly from what I'm saying but this is from my personal experience...I've made plenty of mistakes and had many pleasant surprises over the recent years that have led me to this current thinking.

Pausing to "think" and consider is a really good thing when it comes to messing with your gear.
 
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Lots to update here.

I ended up ordering four of the 24V 12A Power One supplies. I confirmed that they are late model and all match. These will make two BEEFY bipolar 24V supplies for the audio and relay busses. I got all four for under $200 shipped which is pretty good considering they weigh about 20lbs each and street price for new is around $250 each... :eek:

Since the lamp buss runs on 24V power throttled to 21V (to extend the lamp life) I will just use the JH-400 supply I already have to run the lamp buss since it is already setup to output 24V OR 21V depending on what you jumper on the output side. Done.

What will be left to do with the Power One supplies will be to fashion some way of mounting them, coming up with a way to switch them, fuse-protect the current through them to protect the console, and I will probably also incorporate a manual or automatic soft-start circuit. OH! And make the interface cables.

For mounting I suspect I'm going to go with some advice I got which is to just mount them to blank rack panels...makes them instantly rack mountable for a relatively low cost. For switching I don't know yet. Sounds like I can have them switched in their bipolar pairs or daisy-chain the power coming into them and have one switch for all...or plug them into a Furman PL-8 I have sitting around and use the master switch on that as a master switch for the whole console. And for current protection the supplies are already over-current protected, but that is for the supply. The factory supplies have a 2A or 3A fuse in them so I want to emulate that somehow. And for the soft-start it could be as simple as two power switches...one that closes the input power through an appropriate resistor on the hot side, and then another switch that shorts across the resistor after waiting a certain amount of time for full charging of the caps. Or it could be as complex as a timing circuit that powers a relay to short across the resistor, and the components used in the timing circuit would determine the delay time. And for the power cable I thought I had a great solution for that but it probably isn't ideal. Each bipolar supply has its own multiconductor cable coming from it and they used 16AWG stranded cable. I found a good deal on 4-conductor shielded CNC stepper motor wire but it is in 18AWG so I need to keep looking. The cables just need 3 conductors each plus a drain wire that is ideally braided shield.

On the console side of things I've been working on patchbay stuff...turns out that patchbay I got wasn't only just wire wrap on the back but throughout so none of the cabling is usable...its all 26-28AWG solid telco wire. I can still solder to the wire wrap terminals and the price was way right so I'm fine with it.

I got one row of of two jack blocks stripped of wire. Took less time than I thought. Actually kind of fun. Had to use the hemostats for some when the wires would break while unwinding but it wasn't bad. As I went I found a technique of spinning the wire in my fingers to reduce the strain on the wire and reduce breakage. Here you can see an as yet unwired set of blocks above the set I cleaned up, and then the little pile of wires:

IMG_0241_2_1.JPG



And then removing the blocks in preparation to start cleaning them up:

IMG_0242_3_1.JPG



I love this stuff...its so heavy. That block of 48 jacks has got to weigh close to 2lbs...and the amount of material...the thickness of the contacts...I could never wear those things out.

IMG_0243_4_1.JPG



So I started toying around with the development of the panel I'm going to have fabbed to which those jack blocks will mount. I'm going to use Front Panel Express. Super cool and reasonably priced. I have two options I'm trying to sort out. I could either have four of the narrow 1U panels made up to hold the four 48-point jack blocks I have, and then use the one 48-point module that came with the console (which looks like this...its all the same ADC guts, just two 24-point blocks instead of a single 48-point block). That would cost about $160 for the four panels that would look like this:

Modular%20_Patch%20_Panel.jpg



OR, I could keep looking for another cheap ADC patchbay like I got and get one more 48-point block and make ONE panel to hold all five blocks. It would look like this:

Integrated%20_Patch%20_Panel.jpg



That single panel would cost around $100.

Not sure what to do yet so I'm just sleeping on it.

The folks at Front Panel Express have been incredibly helpful and responsive. A+ for pre-sale customer service.

Other things I've been doing is studying the circuit topology on the input/output modules, having some deep discussions regarding cap upgrades as well as learning more about opamps and understanding the technical reasons why I am best to just stick with what's already inside. Not that I was ready to jump ship on the stock MCI 2001/Harris HA-911 opamps, but I like to understand what the pros and cons are. The JH-400 boards are fairly unique in that they are powered by those 24V bipolar rails and I understand now how that directly ties to headroom. Pretty much every option in existence requires a reduction in the power rails to accomodate some other opamp, and it is clear to me now that reducing the power rails is a complex problem. It isn't as simple as putting resistors in series with the local supply to each opamp to throttle the voltage. According to Ohm's Law, with a fixed resistance the voltage fluctuates with changes in current. So while the opamp current is varying in a complex way with the audio signal it is driving so the voltage is also all over the place. You either compromise your headroom further than the rated voltage spec of the opamp (unnecessary reduction in headroom), or you risk cooking it. You can put a zener in to hold the voltage but there are caviats to doing that. So if I find I'm not happy with the sound (and the HF performance is where I'm mostly suspecting I'll be focusing), it seems to me that the best course is cap upgrades and possibly looking at buffering the meters. My understanding is that upgrading the caps makes a notable difference. All down the road. I confirmed that replacing all the 100uF coupling caps with 220uF is the road to go. This has been the standard practice but I did some research and got some advisement to confirm WHY that's the standard practice with this board and that it is the BEST practice. I will experiment with a couple different cap types...all Nichicon. I'll try the KT's and probably the FG's or KZ's for polar, and I'll probably try the ES bipolars on one module and then I can compare. If I can't hear the difference I'll likely stick with the KT's since they are the only 105C rated cap in the bunch.

That's all for now.
 
hi, long time lurker on Gearslutz and i found this and i´m trying to bring one idea to the table ...

nearly the same story ... bought a mci 416b without power supplies years ago ...

ended up that my buddy builds supplies with siemens sitop 5 Ampere units just like these :

uhh not allowed to insert ebay url , google siemens sitop 5 Ampere you´ll find them :)

he builds a housing and its works like a charm since then .. means 2007

always been on the hunt for original supplies , but nowadays i dont care anymore ...

it´s been dirt cheap , no fans , reliable ...

easy solution ... even when i think the originals would be "better"

trying to help

and YES i need 4 more channel strips for my 416b, any ideas ? :D

Cadde
 

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Cory, glad to see things are coming together with the PSUs and wiring harnesses and moving onto thinking about the module refurbs!

Hey, if you want to talk turkey about re-caps, you know I'm ass-deep in mine! (Hey, i'll trade ya for a lesson in grounding schemes! ;) ) In the end my re-cap plan was a balancing act of "how can I keep this affordable while improving value where possible/prudent/cost-effective. In your case, with many fewer caps to order and probably a more generous budget (I'm perpetually shoestring), you sure have options I didn't but anyway....Nichicon and Panasonic are both very good choices. I wound up with 99% Panasonics as it's what suited my needs. Yes this meant that the bipolars are 85C caps and that's kind of a bummer, but in the end I resolved that it's not that huge a deal, either way, this is probably the last re-cap this console will get and they'll last a good long time. Would I have popped for Nichicon Muse bipolars if I had the budget and the stocks of the values I wanted were available? Very possible, but not how the cookie crumbled. If I'd had more time and a bigger budget, I would have spent more time working up a scheme that was all about performance and weighed each and every cap's purpose in its place in the circuit (especially the BPs as they're mostly in the signal) but...needs must, oh well!

For polar caps I wound up with Panasonic FM, FC, and due to available stocks in the large quantities I required in the time frame I needed them, I actually ended up ordering quit a few NHG and FR series, the latter mainly filtering IC power pins. They spec similarly to FM/FC and the price to quality ratio is very good. All of the polars are 105C caps.

Probably the only place where I was feeling iffy about using 85C (bipolar) caps was in the EQ sections, because in my console that's where lots of heat gets trapped an indeed where I experienced the highest concentrations of old cap failures. In your 416, the modules aren't nearly as cluttered with daughtercards and the main boards aren't as heavily stuffed so probably better ventilated, but then, I don't know, maybe it also runs warmer than a 600 series?

But I ramble...really glad to see the progress on this console!
 
hi, long time lurker on Gearslutz and i found this and i´m trying to bring one idea to the table ...

nearly the same story ... bought a mci 416b without power supplies years ago ...

ended up that my buddy builds supplies with siemens sitop 5 Ampere units just like these :

uhh not allowed to insert ebay url , google siemens sitop 5 Ampere you´ll find them :)

he builds a housing and its works like a charm since then .. means 2007

always been on the hunt for original supplies , but nowadays i dont care anymore ...

it´s been dirt cheap , no fans , reliable ...

easy solution ... even when i think the originals would be "better"

trying to help

and YES i need 4 more channel strips for my 416b, any ideas ? :D

Cadde

AH!

I'm not alone! :D :D :D

Well, my power supply solution is on the way with the Power One 24V 12A units. Interesting to know about the Seimens units though.

As for your need for 4 more "B" modules...boy...dunno. But are you registered at the MCI Recording forum? You ought to get registered over there. Eventually something will come a long and it is a good group there. There is a forum specifically dedicated to the 400-series consoles: JH-400 Series Consoles

Check it out.

NOW...I'm wondering if you could help me out with another issue. Haven't gotten any response over at the MCI forum (its relatively "quiet" there). I'm looking for some pictures and physical information about the 416.

  • The leg assembly...mine are missing and I'll be re-creating them but I need dimensions and pics of how they attach...I can't figure it out based on where the holes are on the end panels on my 416.
  • The rear vented panels and how they attach to the frame (i.e. the hardware...my panels are missing but there are some metal clips on the frame that look like they had something to do with fastening the panels to the frame)...just need some pics.
  • The wiring around the back of the talkback mic...somebody was unkind and there are several wires and a 3 terminal buss bar hanging free that got ripped out of/off of their intended terminations...just need a pic or two so I can figure out what s supposed to go to what and how it all mounted.

If you have a chance and could help that would be great. There aren't a lot of us (416 owners) around it seems.

That's a JH-16 next to your 416 yes? How is it working these days? If you have any more pictures of your 416 put them up! The more the merrier!
 
Cory, glad to see things are coming together with the PSUs and wiring harnesses and moving onto thinking about the module refurbs!

Hey, if you want to talk turkey about re-caps, you know I'm ass-deep in mine! (Hey, i'll trade ya for a lesson in grounding schemes! ;) ) In the end my re-cap plan was a balancing act of "how can I keep this affordable while improving value where possible/prudent/cost-effective. In your case, with many fewer caps to order and probably a more generous budget (I'm perpetually shoestring), you sure have options I didn't but anyway....Nichicon and Panasonic are both very good choices. I wound up with 99% Panasonics as it's what suited my needs. Yes this meant that the bipolars are 85C caps and that's kind of a bummer, but in the end I resolved that it's not that huge a deal, either way, this is probably the last re-cap this console will get and they'll last a good long time. Would I have popped for Nichicon Muse bipolars if I had the budget and the stocks of the values I wanted were available? Very possible, but not how the cookie crumbled. If I'd had more time and a bigger budget, I would have spent more time working up a scheme that was all about performance and weighed each and every cap's purpose in its place in the circuit (especially the BPs as they're mostly in the signal) but...needs must, oh well!

For polar caps I wound up with Panasonic FM, FC, and due to available stocks in the large quantities I required in the time frame I needed them, I actually ended up ordering quit a few NHG and FR series, the latter mainly filtering IC power pins. They spec similarly to FM/FC and the price to quality ratio is very good. All of the polars are 105C caps.

Probably the only place where I was feeling iffy about using 85C (bipolar) caps was in the EQ sections, because in my console that's where lots of heat gets trapped an indeed where I experienced the highest concentrations of old cap failures. In your 416, the modules aren't nearly as cluttered with daughtercards and the main boards aren't as heavily stuffed so probably better ventilated, but then, I don't know, maybe it also runs warmer than a 600 series?

But I ramble...really glad to see the progress on this console!

Brian, I think the 400 series DO run warmer. My impression of some of the scuttlebutt about opamp failures over the years is that they are related to heat. I'll have to see once I start using mine whether heat buildup is an issue and if it is I may add some forced air cooling to the frame. It would be easy to do. The entire bottom of the frame has a perforated screen that runs along the entire width and is about 10~12" deep underneath the motherboard, and there is also a perforated strip just below the armrest. The way it is designed it appears that air moving in a convection pattern would come up from under the motherboard at the front edge and also through the vented section below the armrest and then up and toward the back along the module cards and vent out the perforated section on the BACK of the frame, which also runs the entire width. You can see the rear perforated section and the one below the armrest as well as the gap between the frame and the front edge of the motherboard in this picture. Decent design in theory but I'll have to see if stuff is getting significantly warm and in that case then some baffling and placement of a couple-three fans at the back that are low rpm (i.e. quiet) would probably take care of the problem just to encourage some air-flow.

I think more than anything ensuring good heat-sinking for the opamp TO-99 cans will be important. A bunch of the cans in mine have nothing, some have the standard steel finned heat dispersion bands and a few have these really cool extruded aluminum heatsinks. I'm trying to determine if the there is any benefit in the aluminum ones and if so I'll probably stock up on those. They are like these. Also, of course using a good heatsink compound. I'm a bit bothered by what somebody did in the past on mine...there are a bunch of the TO-99 cans with the steel finned type bands that are GLUED on with some sort of silicon product...the steel bands don't seem to fit tight (also a problem in and of itself as far as cooling goes) like they do on the ones in my Ampex MM-1000 amp cards, so to remedy the issue they just blobbed on some kind of caulk. Seems to me this could do nothing but harm to have a cap of insulating silicon rubber on top of the can. :eek: So I'll get those cleaned up for sure.

Caps...yeah...the JH-416"A" cards are really VERY simple...only two kinds of electrolytic caps, the 100uF coupling caps and only a handful at that, and the local filter caps. They seemed TOO simple to me...all sorts of caps I'm used to seeing that just aren't there...I thought it was just because it was older but then I realized its because they are transformer balanced...you add a bunch of stuff when you go transformerless, all in the name of "transparency" I suppose. Anyway that's it for caps...12 coupling caps and 2 filter caps per module. I'm told the factory Ducati caps on mine are known to have not been great from the start and are also known to be prone to premature drying out...I think in this kind of situation pretty much ANY reputable cap is a sure improvement. I use Nichicon because its what's familiar to me and therefore I'm comfortable with them, but honestly I think it really is true that there isn't going to be some "magic" improvement by spending premium on the best of the best of the best. Yeah, I'm sure there are plenty of arguments counter to that statement, but I don't think my ears are goiong to hear the difference you know? I think it is of paramount importance to consider the source and his/her goals when receiving advice. And I also believe it is acurate to say that the "standard-grade" of today is better than the "select-grade" of yesterday, and the stock caps on my cards were not "select-grade".

MAN I used to do a lot of shotgunning of all electrolytics. Maybe some of it was warranted, maybe not. Maybe it was all just an insurance policy, maybe none. I don't know. I still think its a good practice to recap a power supply when it is getting on in years, but my impression is that its stuff like what I have in my JH-416 that drive the practice of recapping...its about 40 years old, operates warm and the caps weren't that great to start with. It makes clear sense at this point compared to a lot of the other recapping that I've done on stuff that is about half the age of the 416 and had better parts from the get-go. So I'll be recapping as I get to it but not before I get it cleaned up and operating. Just don't want to go that route again; work-work-work before play. I've got plenty of work to do on this thing but the goal is to hear how it sounds, and it'll be more fun to hear what it sounds like stock and then hear how it opens up with some new parts. And then like I said above I'll try some different flavors and I have a hunch I'll end up using the Nichicon KT's. I've used scads of them. They are Nichicon's only "audio-grade" cap that is also rated for 105C. I could spend double and triple or more on the MUSE stuff but I just don't believe that the incremental difference is going to be a justification for spending that much more money you know? Its a passive component. A better part is going to do better at staying out of the way of what the active components are doing but I think you reach a point that you are splitting hairs, and they didn't even HAVE stuff like the KT's back in the day. It'll be interesting to try the FG, KZ and ES MUSE caps and do a shootout and see. In the end I think the KT's will be the winner based on the temp rating and cost coupled with the performance (pun not intended).

The decision to go with 220uF over the stock 100uF (which is already pretty good size for coupling) is based on the LF knee calculation. The stock value tapers at between 2 and 3Hz. Sounds like 2Hz is a good target which would call for a 133uF cap so going the next standard value up brings us to 220uF which puts us in the 1Hz area. No high pass filtration going on there which is what we want. Would MCI have put 220uF caps in there from the beginning if they could? Maybe, but in 1970 a 220uF electrolytic was bigger and more expensive than the already big and expensive (relatively speaking) 100uF parts they put in. Money is the great compromiser of audio equipment. The JH-400 series, in spite of being a "professional" product was geared to handily beat the competition on price and so some value engineering was employed. Today it'll cost about $100~$200 to recap. Not bad when you consider that in today's dollars as equipped my console would cost between $150,000 and $200,000.

My point here is that your Panasonics are great parts. Brian you know as well as I do that you can search the web for what people have used and Panasonic parts ALWAYS come up. FM, FC, whatever. Good stuff. If I wasn't so familiar with the Nichicon parts I betcha I'd be putting Panasonics in.

And the whole non-polar vs. polar thing...I wanted to understand WHY, on a bipolar powered audio circuit, non-polars are considered "better" or more "ideal" and I'm still in a fog about it. I talked to some others from a theory standpoint and what I got right was "I don't know". The question that came up is whether or not the non-polar caps are essentially two polar caps back-to-back in one can and if that is the case you are essentially doubling that number of caps when you replace polar coupling caps with non-polar. If that's the case then whether or not having more caps in the path is outweighed by the benefit of the non-polar cap's ability to handle being reverse-biased I don't know. What shows up on paper may not be apparent to the ear. I went ahead and cut open a polar and a non-polar cap to see if I could identify anything physically that would shed light on that question about the construction of non-polar caps but no questions were answered. One of my mentors still supposes that it is something "like that", i.e. functionally two polar caps back-to back in one can. Here are some chopped up caps...the polar cap is on the left, the non-polar on the right:

polar%20and%20non-polar%20cap%20exposed.jpg



I guess the other Nichicon option is the EP series caps which are 105C rated, but not "audio-grade" which may not matter one little bit...the marketing people would love it if I thought it did I suppose...but they are even more expensive than the 85C rated ES "MUSE" parts, so who knows.

My understanding is that this is ALL about biasing...audio signal is relatively extremely complex and electrolytic caps display non-linear performance when their charge state passes through or to "0". Non-polar caps handle it better. A solution is to introduce a bias to the caps so that the polarity of the charge is controlled. If this is done right then it really shouldn't matter if you have a polar cap installed because the bias current will keep the cap from being reverse biased. Again, non-polar caps handle this better because they are non-polar. They still have non-linear characteristics when crossing "0" though. To take it a step further I understand that in some SSL consoles they used two back-to-back polar caps for coupling and then tied the midpoint to a DC bias. Dunno if that was worthwhile or not. I hope that somebody smarter than me will read this and correct me where I'm wrong on my understanding.

Anyway, please take any and all of this with a grain of salt...I'm an unschooled hobbyist. We'd really need to have somebody trained and/or experienced in audio circuitry to have some more affirmative info, but I'm sort of spilling this out here to reinforce why I'm sort of the mind to select good quality parts that are affordable and be done with it...shell out some extra cash to try out the "high-end" parts to compare for myself, but barring any major "ah-HAH!" outcomes of that objective testing it seems like a whole lot of attention to something that may be a whole lot of hoo-haw to try and make the circuit more "perfect" and "clean" and "linear". This mixer will be anything BUT clean and linear. For folks like me and equipment like this it seems that going back to the adage I was told wayyyyy back in the beginning, which is to select good quality low ESR 105C parts is good enough for me. Yes, there are exceptions where space and availability of certain parts back when some gear was manufactured as well as COST may mean that there are cheap "upgrades" today that are beneficial, but I've had to learn where that is evident. Not that I know even a simple majority of those cases with lytics in audio circuits at this point, but I know more than I used to, for instance, about sizing coupling caps in the audio path and how to identify evidence of cost controlling with parts used...identifying the compromises made and then make a choice to sidestep that compromise. I think many of us here would be surprised, especially with the Tascam stuff, just how fine and dandy we are to recap with the same value and voltage rating and just "get good quality 105C rated parts".

Live and learn.
 
BTW, I'm leaning toward just getting the single integrated panel from Front Panel Express for the patchbays and picking up another used ADC patchbay that was the same 48-point jackblocks in it and having all 5 blocks in the patchfield the same. In the end the cost would be about the same (save money on the single panel, spend a little more money on the additional patchbay) but I'd have spares and everything would match. The sticky point NOW is that the 48-point blocks are grouped that way because they are intended to be and are indeed normalled pairs, and the bottom module in the JH-416 is NOT normalled as it is the "tie-line" module which is where all the ins and outs of your external gear shows up...so using a block that is designed to be normalled and then breaking the normalling straps to use it as a non-normalled bay seems hinky to me...but the alternative is to have a panel made up for four 48-point blocks and two 24-point blocks, which I guess I could do that too. Oy. Just more time to measure and layout the panel design. Bottom line is that I'm leaning toward a single panel as opposed to a set of single module panels for easier servicing. I pictured me needing to reconfigure or repair something at the back of the patchfield and with all the wire back there it would be a WHOLE lot easier to undo four screws and be able to tip the WHOLE patchfield up rather than trying to wrestle one module out...maybe not...urg...sleep on it.
 
ok , later i ´ll be in my studio and take a few more detailed pictures ...

and the jh-16 is not running these days , after moving this monster with 3 muscled heroes ( not me included ) she isn´t running. But she works before moving. After reading a lot, i think its one of the known contact issues, but hard to find. She´s powering up and all , but the reels wont run. And besides that i´m nearly broke these days , its hard to finance a tech ... :o

And after tracking my band and a few others, its hard to imagine whats come new to the table when the jh comes to play.

Its so warm and FAT ... if the jh16 adds punchiness , i´m in heaven !

But i´m almost there ! 95 % :)

Cadde
 

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Oh man, thanks for the additional pics so far...what a cool looking room. The ceilings look like they are decently tall...and seeing that JH-416B and JH-16 together is just...cool. :cool: So sorry to hear that the JH-16 isn't working. :( I'm assuming you are going to keep it though and get it worked on when you can, yes? Get hooked up with that MCI forum I linked above. The JH-16 is a source of aggravation for those that have had them but you'll find help there.

So, you are looking for 4 more input/output modules for the JH-416 but it looks like you have a full compliment there...do you have some that aren't working? Just wondering what the additional 4 are for.
 
Man oh man, I know a lot of the "old timers" did not care for its touchy transport, but damn I'll bet that JH16 sounds SWEET when it's cooperating though! A billion bucks says you have a bunch of Molex pins that want to be re-soldered after being moved...the bane of all MCI tape machine users! Forget paying a tech, it's very tedious work but easy--and if you have a soldering iron and some solder already handy, won't cost a dime.


Cory, I would say that we have quite similar approaches to our re-caps, actually! It sounds like we're both much more willing to be pragmatic as opposed "hot rodders." I'll write more about this in my own MCI thread, but generally I set out to keep the values more or less stock and only increased values for two good reasons: 1) because there was an MCI service bulletin that my console was never caught up on, which basically recommended doubling certain bipolar cap values and changing a handful of polars to bipolars; the upshot of all that was "to improve low frequency response" so I was certainly game there, and 2) because I had so many caps to order (my modules had 97-115 caps EACH, depending!!) and because I was on a very tight budget, I wanted to consolidate some values to take advantage of the considerable volume discounts available from Mouser, in otherwords, where there were 220uf and 100uf caps, I combined these to all 220uf whether the service bulletin dictated it or not...10,15, 22, and 47uf caps were all combined to 47uf partly to consolidate and partly because it was recommended to me that the 10, 15 and 22ufs be increased anyway...and so-on. This streamlined the job and saved a considerable amount of money.

As for brands, I wasn't suggesting you should ditch your plans for the Nichicons in any way. It's sort of like choosing Audi vs. BMW, they're both very good and you can't go wrong. I found the Panasonics to be slightly cheaper at the quantities I was dealing with, by a couple cents on average (doesn't sound like much...until you're ordering a few thousand!) and in the past I've found the Pannies to be very good quality so that's the way I went. You're right, I'd forgotten the MUSE are only 85C bipolars just like the Pan SUs and people seem to like both just fine. It was a fairly easy choice to make in the end, the SUs are good caps, well priced, all the values I needed were in stock AND I wasn't going to end up with all 105C bipolars anyway so there you have it. On a side note, Nichis were always my next choice if I couldn't find a Pan value or Mouser was out of stock when I went to order, so I did end up with a couple handfuls of Nichis in my order. My VariQ channels got some Nichicon EPs in the EQ boards in the end and that was just fine with me.

We both err to what we know and like and endeavor to suit our objectives as sensibly as possible. I think that's great! In the end, both our consoles are going to rock and roll with the work we're putting into them!

Boy oh boy Cory, seriously, fourteen caps per channel? YOU'RE KILLIN' ME, SMALLS!!! :D :D :D I wish, I wish I wish! :D :D

I look forward to seeing how your 416 is once you get to power it up and run some signal through it. in the beginning, my console had a lot of things that just plain didn't work due to dead caps, especially in the EQs (in some cases, whole EQ sections that were just...dead) and also in the lamp circuits (which managed to cause wholesale problems across the console! Amazing how a few little shorted tantalums in channel lamp rails can bring a whole desk down huh!). I look forward to the sit-rep there. I enjoyed seeing my console come back to life more and more as I popped re-capped modules into it! They haven't solved ALL the problems in the thing, but certainly plenty, and more when I finally get to do the fader packs, automation and meter boards....fourteen per channel man...good lawd have mercy, I picked the wrong MCI series!! :D
 
Brian, I wasn't thinking you were suggestion I should ditch my plans to use Nichicon caps...I was thinking you were feeling like you compromised by getting Panasonics...heheh...like a couple of old ladies trying to take care of each other... :D

Anyway, yeah...like-minded.

I can sort of empathize though a bit on your recapping experience with the JH-600...that prototype Tascam mixer I have has 6 PCB's per module (its no 14 :eek: but more than 1!) that are in two rows and all tied together by hard-wired interconnects so in order to recap them all the PCB's have to be dropped at one time from the module frame, carefully peeled apart from each other and then you can carefully get to all 79 caps. I can't imagine working on the JH-600 modules, though I imagine they are easier to get apart to access the solder joints, and how nice it would be on the Tascam cards if they were glass fiber. They're all phenolic and thus require more care to maintain the lands.

97-115 caps per module. Yuck.

Yeah...with the JH-416 its like you pop the module out, take a quick gander and go "well, there they are!"...maybe 10 minutes per module to recap. Sorry. I'll stop gloating now. :o

And on your comments on cap values it has been an education for me to start gaining understanding with why certain values were used and sometimes a borderline gets pushed because the manufacturer got a great deal on a huge shipment of a certain part so you see certain parts everywhere, and sometimes where they don't QUITE make sense. I've found this in my Soundtracs mixer. All the lytics are nice Philips axials but the "corporate value" coupling cap was 68uF/6.3V. The 6.3V is really a skimper from an insurance standpoint on a 17V bipolar powered circuit, and even 68uF may be a little low in terms of the LF capability...but they are everywhere. I'm sure they got a good deal on them. So its nice to know where you can go bigger to no detriment or maybe even a benefit and save on cost. Cool.

I'm sure while you are envying the simplicity of my 416 you are also realizing it wouldn't work well in your setting...too limited on certain functions. It will require some creative practices even in my simple setting. That JH-600 of yours from a feature standpoint is a GREAT fit for what you are doing.
 
so young Jedi , here a few pics , detailed as possible , iphone quality.
on pic 625 you see the stand from above. Stand dimensions , as you can see : h 68,5 cm , deep : 68 cm and 5 cm thick (?) uhh excuse for my english ( old fart ) and the panels were 5 cm * 7,5 cm . I hope you get the picture. There are two holes beside the console frame. on the inner side of the stand is some metal attached where the the screw goes through. The wood behind is a bit undermined that the screwdriver fits in.
I cant take a good picture cause it so dark.

I made also pics from the Back panel and for your interest
From picture 632 on the labelling of the back connectors ....

uhh my english , sorry again guys ...

and yes , i will get the jh 16 back to work again ... I want to hear the magic !
I have requests from a few real clients that would love to track on her and also PAY for the use of it.
And its real fun in my room , cause its also our rehearsal room. 4m heights pretty deep , yeah : cool !

hope i can help a bit ...

Cadde
 

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Cadde,

Young jedi...heheh. :D

I don't know what to say but thank you so much for taking the time to help me.

I just added to your forum reputation. It is the least I can do.

Also, you really don't need to apologize for your english...my goodness...I hardly know ANY German and here you are doing your best (and very well) with a second language. Thank you.

I have more questions, and if you don't have time I understand.

  • Are the square-shaped leg assemblies connected to each other in any way or are the only just attached to their end panels of the console frame?
  • What are the dimensions of the inside rectangle of the leg assembly? Is it, like, 63,5cm tall by 63cm deep?
  • You said in your last post that "the panels were 5 cm * 7,5 cm..." What panels?
  • I still don't understand how the leg assemblies attach to the console frame. I think I'm going to make a video of what I have and what I'm looking for. I think it would be easier to understand.
  • How does the rear panel of the mixer, the cover, attach to the back of the mixer? Does the bottom of it sit on the cable tray and the top bolt to the back side of the meter bridge?
  • I also think I was not clear about what I need with the wiring in the back of the mixer. I need info about the talkback mic wiring and the wiring in that area. I will include this in the video.

Huge thanks again for your help so far.

Tell me what is happening that you need 4 more input/output modules? Maybe I can help you with fixing your existing ones if that is the problem.

I agree also that your trouble with your JH-16 may be as simple as refreshing some solder connections or remvoing molex connectors and soldering wire direct to the molex pins. I will be doing this with my JH-416 mixer.
 
So here is a video with my questions about the leg assemblies as well as some detail about some wiring questions behind the meter bridge:

YouTube


NOTE: After capturing the video I found another pair of wires loose...I'm holding them in the picture below; a white and grey twisted pair. So there is that pair of wires, and the terminal strip with one terminal that has two unterminated black wires and one unterminated wire that ends up red...starts out, like, white with blue stripe. The talkback mic has nothing connected to it nor does the lamp directly below the talkback mic.

You can see it all in the pic below:

hkser%20007-1.jpg
 
Last edited:
hello again, nice video, good quality ...

only just attached to their end panels of the console frame? yes

dimensions of the inside rectangle of the leg assembly? i´ve taken the outside , height is 68,5cm and alongside the console is 68 cm. And the legs ( not frame , my fault ) is 5x7,5cm.

How does the rear panel of the mixer, the cover, attach to the back of the mixer? Does the bottom of it sit on the cable tray and the top bolt to the back side of the meter bridge?

no idea , ive took it off and since then its off....

now its time to take a closer look my infamous pictures ...ähem ...

dont know in which order theyre appear ,so i post them and reply at first...
 

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