mastering in SF

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Re: You're on . . .

chessrock said:
As far as commercial releases go, I can think of many that have been done awfully poor. Old Genesis (with Peter Gabriel) and some of Hendrix's stuff sound simply attrocious...
Yeah... good point!

I'd love to have a go at Nursery Cryme from a sound quality point of view.... problem is though, *that* recorded sound was part of the charm of the record, IMO... so I'm not inclined to even fuck with it to "improve" it! :)

SOOOOOOOOOOOO.... anyone out there want to donate a final mix for this little "pissing" contest??? ;) :)

At the very least, you'll end up getting a different perspective on your mix back - (I still won't call this a "mastering" contest, since neither chessrock nor I fit the bill!)

Bruce
 
Draft Rules for the first annual "HomeRec Master Off"

OK, Gentlemen, for your review and comment....

  1. We will solicit a mix from the BBS.
  2. Chess and Bruce get to choose which song they will both master, if we get more than one response.
  3. Entry is open to all HomeRec BBS members. (Anyone else can join in the pissing contest, even real "Mastering Engineers")
  4. Entry fee will be any necessary Postage and materials. If you've got bandwidth, entry is free!!!
  5. Each entrant will start with the same 16 bit 44.1kHz .wav file.
  6. Final masters (16 bit 44.1kHz .wav files) must be received by Queue or publicly available on the internet by 10/31/2001.
  7. Entrants must also submit detailed notes of hardware and software used, and any other techniques applied. (We are trying to learn something here, :D)
  8. If Queue can manage the storage/bandwidth, we'll host the entries online in Lossless Compressed .wav form. (If he can't, look down 3 rules.)
  9. Judging will be open to anyone (including entrants), results will be tallied by a poll set up by Queue. (Who will have to do something funky, like add a username/password to the end of each song so we know only people who have listened to the tracks can vote.)
  10. Source of entries will be 'blinded' to those judging. (They will not know who entered what, will choose 'A' or 'B' or...)
  11. If someone wants to judge, but does not have sufficient bandwidth, they can send Queue a blank CD and return postage.
  12. Judging will close 11/15/2001.
  13. Winner has bragging rights for a year.
    [/list=1]

    Queue
 
Sounds good - the time frame is better for me...

Will chess and I download the selected track? If so, from where? (ie, who's hosting that??)

Bruce
 
Depends on who is submitting it, and if they've got bandwidth. I can host it, tho.

Queue
 
Ahem.......,

I would take you up on your challange chessrock,
What do I get from you though if I win?
You send me your songs and pay the full price?
That would be about $45 an hour
I agree only...you have to agree to send the contest song to a pro to evaluate. You can choose the pro if you like as long as I agree as well.....

Blue balls can...I mean Blue bear can also participate on this challange. :D
Sorry I'm no gentleman I can use the cash.......:)
I'll do with out the bragging rights.... or I'll leave the bragging to Bruce or any other participante who joins in.....
 
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If you're equipped for mastering Shailat - I'm definitely NOT butting heads with you in a contest!

As I've said, I'm not equipped to do mastering and have never professed to be a mastering engineer. My opinions on the whole subject come from being aware of the process involved and seeing the quality of the results when including mastering as part of record production.

This little contest is NOT about mastering at all - it's really about who can get a better sound out of their gear than the other.

And if Shailat is equipped as a full mastering facility - he WILL win, hands-down. Hell, he'd win on experience alone, not even talking about mastering - as would a number of others here on this board. So chess... think carefully about taking Shailat up on this latest challenge.....

Bruce
 
Actully Bruce, we agree on the topic.
Although I am almost geared for mastering and do so in extreme cases...when there is no more money left for a high profile mastering service for the project in hand.
I also claim better to leave it to a well equipped and mastering artist. Another reason never mentioned is I also like to send out the mix's so a new person who has not heard the mix's and hashed themfor hours over hours and isnt influenced by my ideas
as well as has fresh ones will give it a listen and make changes AS I SIT right beside him and we discuss the changes to be made.
I send it out and refrain from doing it myself and pay no less then $55 - $65 and hour. I'd say 95% of my clients send it out to mastering.

As for the contest......I'm just kidding around. I will take up a challange if insulted by chess :). But I really have no time curently to take on extra work for free.

If he chalenges and pays if he loses I'll take him up on it.
 
If you're looking for tunes to master, I've got plenty of 'em, home recorded, in which I think the quality is pretty decent..both audio and performance wise. I got 'em in many different genres, if that is important, can submit them on CDr as a .wav, audio file 1/2 track reel to reel...whatever. I can also do DATs, but would prefer not to send out a half dozen DAT tapes at $10/shot...but CDr's, I have no problem...with postage either....infact that to be my preference. If a preview is important, I could provide MP3.com links also. Let me know if any songs are needed.
Chris Harwood
 
Shailat said:
Another reason never mentioned is I also like to send out the mix's so a new person who has not heard the mix's and hashed themfor hours over hours and isnt influenced by my ideas
as well as has fresh ones will give it a listen and make changes AS I SIT right beside him and we discuss the changes to be made.
Actually I DID mention this in my very first answer, but it bears repeating, because it is very important to have objective ears hearing the songs fresh!

And I hear exactly where you're coming from Shailat! :)

Bruce
 
Works for me Chris.... How about you ChessRock???

I'd say pick a song or 2 you want us to work on and I guess submit it to Queue for hosting so that Chess and I can choose which one and then download it.

Bruce
 
Count me in . . .

I've been out for a while, here.

I hope we haven't lost site of what my initial challenge is really all about.

Let me reiterate from my previous post:

"I am willing to say that a person with a good ear, some quality software plugins, and a ton of patience can churn out some very acceptable work. Acceptable in the sense that the "average listener" may not notice a whole lot of difference between the professionally-mastered stuff and the home-grown"

Note that I said "average listener" -- that's average as in not a pro. Since this is a forum intended for the project studio, I would think it fitting to open the judging to non-pros.

By "acceptable work," I mean work that is of a quality level that the "average listener" will not notice a dramatic gap in quality between the two.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I believe my work can come within 2-3 points. So if you add up the scores of the pro, and his come out to an 8, for instance, I believe mine can be at least a 5 or a 6. A two-point differential I would consider an all-out victory.

Were I a betting man, I would like my odds. I truly believe that the advent of the faster, more powerful PC has put unprecedentedly high-level mastering abilities in the hands of the common man. And I would love to put this to the test to see just how narrow the gap truly is.

Let's bring it on. But note that I am requesting a point spread. You decide what's fair.
 
Chessrock,

A few points I would like to point out to you, on why I think you are going all wrong about this.

There are people that travel all the way across the world to record drums in a specific studio as they have the best room to record drums in. They then travel back to their on state to record the rest of the tracks.
Why would anybody do something so crazy as to spend money and time over a drum recording?!?!? ther arent enough good studios in their state to record drums? as if the average listener
can tell the difference ?!!? (HE can't).

The point is.. the artists who care about their art will go the extra mile to get that wonderfull sound. Some might call them fools while others will give them respect for doing the most they can to
get the best possible results.

Many engineers will tell you they sit and make decisions that might look petty to the commen musician....who cares.....this pre that pre... it's all about the music.. blah blah.. Can Joe shmoe hear the difference at all ?!?!? (no) so why do people spend $15,000 for a certain compressor ? why not the $170 RNC ?

The answer is again to reach a almost spiritual level of sound, it takes the best you can get your hands on.
It's interesting that most Home recordists will tell you Behringer ? pre's? HAH no way man it sucks...yet when you tell them a modified Telefunken ( I use one quite a lot) is in a different league
then a presonus they snear...gear snob.....it's all about the music....the Beatles 4 tracked.....etc.....

Your saying that even a average user can do it at home and also not hear much a difference is correct.....for the home recordist. Yet who makes a cd and invests $$$$$1000000 and years of hard work and fustration and closed up in a studio arguing about mic here or there or this amp or that amp...double mic the snare on top and bottom angle it 45 nononon 46 no no no
51.5 degrees...for the average listener who cant hear the difference between a Behringer or a Neve.... You think Pink Floyd spent their years in the studio playing with sound for the average listener ?!?!?
I bet they all sat around saying.."I can't wait untill my dentist hears this" ?!?!?.


Your wanting to let average listeners judge is all wrong.
Imagine this...you post a song on the clinic here at HR...somebody tells you "cool trumpet....to bright on the OH...
to compressed on the vocals...
Yet you did not even record a trumpet...you didnt use OH at all and you didnt compress the vocals.......it happends all the time in the clinic.... I'm not knocking anybody....I admire all Homerecorders.......they do it for love not money. Yet these are some of the people you want to judge what is right and wrong in mastering ?!?!?.

A mastering artist will pick out a problematic freq in seconds with the exact "Q" factor and the right dB amout of Cut- Gain.
I wonder if you were serious about your music to the degree that you would see it as your soul and heart if you would put it in the hands of a Quote "person with a good ear, some quality software plugins, and a ton of patience can churn out some very acceptable work. Acceptable in the sense that the "average listener" may not notice a whole lot of difference between the professionally-mastered stuff and the home-grown".
Do you think in your bedroom your even going to hear the problimatic freq?.....forget it...

I would rather pay the price (which hurts every body) and sleep well for the rest of my life knowing it was in good hands rather then toy with it myself becuase I prefer to go that extra mile be it
even 2 points above a home mastering job.

Please everybody spare me the "this is Homerecording.com"
Its not about home... it's about the art of recording and learning all about your limitations and doing the best with it. That is what matters

Acceptable is good for some and that is fine. But for many it's not even close......
 
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Uh, okay.

I think we've all heard the stories about the engineer who won a grammy using nothing but sm57's. I've also heard the one about the Beatie Boys using super-cheap mics on their drums in order to get that dirty sound they were looking for.

Trent Reznor has been known to do a lot of his recordings at home using pro tools. Matthew Sweet has been known to record some of his drum tracks in mono - using just one microphone in front of the set.

Just the other week, I was looking for a particular effect on the vocals, but wasn't sure what I was looking for. As I bent over to change the bag in my waste basket, I was kinda' singing under my breath, and realized "this is it!" The sound reflections from my voice sounded great coming from this trash can.

Later on, I actually recorded a vocal track that I absolutely love using two microphones: One pointed at my face, and the other one placed inside the waste basket I was singing in to. I could spend $5,000 on an effects processor, and would never be able to duplicate that sound.

Although this example is a little extreme, I would have to be awfully careful in who I selected, were I to use a professional. Pink Floyd is actually a GREAT example, and I'm glad you brought them up. In their early days, Alan Parsons used an awful lot of more primitive micing techniques and wasn't afraid to experiment. Probably all the drugs they were doing. :) :) But seriously, you would be surprized at how they recorded some of their stuff. In StarWars, the sound of the "blasters" actually came from someone "plucking" a telephone cable outdoors.

My point is that the artist is creative, and sometimes I believe the engineer can get a little caught up in the technical side of things. It is a creative process, and should be viewed as such. If you think a $100 ART will give you a better sound for a particular application, then don't be afraid to use it over your $5,000 Manley. If you want to get a real thin and noisy-sounding vocal or percussion on a particular track, then might I recommend leaving the dust cover on your U87 and opting instead for a fine array of $10 microphones at your local radio shack?

I'm not sure what we're even arguing about . . . or even if we're arguing at all. But don't forget who your audience is. Recording Engineers and audiophiles make up only a small percentage of our total population. And, ironically, they don't tend to buy many records ! ! ! Any artist who looks at this group as their target audience will not make much of a living.

Getting back to the point: Remember, this "challenge" or whatever is supposed to be fun. It's a gentlemen's bet, and I'm taking it with a light heart. What fun would it be if we didn't allow forum regulars to participate in the voting? So I say booooo to your idea. Two words for you: no fun. Oh well, every party has a pooper, I guess.
 
Most CD's you hear are not recorded useing a garbage can over somebodys head.....
So...... you collected all the stories of the freak testings of some engineers and disrigarded all the rest of their work in order to make a point of which is....is...what excatly ?!?!?
that now we should all use a $100 pre instead of a $2000 one?
Ohhh riiiiightttttttt the creative point......
Do please teach me the issue of creativity...please send me your last CD so I can apreciate your point.

As I see you and me have a different outlook on things and I can't see any common ground here, you continue to master at home. If you think you are getting any more creative becuase you do so by yourself with some plug ins in a bedroom with your computer then go knock yourself out.
I come across people with your outlook all the time yet I havn't seen anybody come up with the results they all claim to be able to achive....
Perhaps while your having your fun you'll surprise me with amazing results. I look foward to judging your creativity.
 
What would really be interesting...

Force a mastering engineer to use the 'soft approach'....

Make them use the same tools as the homerecker (software and plugins).

Sure, they would scream, but I wonder how different it would sound from that same person's work using all the great gear.

Queue

-btw, is there gonna be a challenge, or not...?
 
Yea, we're still on . . .

This Shailittle guy just needs a place to vent his frustrations. I can see where he's coming from, though. He's made his livelihood for a number of years doing a certain thing . . . and now, technology is threatening to make his job unnecessary. Kind of like when robots started doing more and more assembly line work.

Still, I don't know what he's worried about. It's not like any Joe Schmo can plug in a computer and start mastering. And it's not like the level of quality is on par with what he does, either. My girlfriend is a graphic designer, and there isn't anything that she does that the average person wouldn't have the tools to do with a mac and a copy of Quark Express.

Still, it takes years of doing what she does in order to understand what kinds of designs are best-suited to each application . . . what kinds of layouts will invoke a positive impression or make the person want to buy the product, or at least remember it. That's kind of where the mastering engineer comes in to play, and for those that need their work to be of the absolute highest quality, there is no substitute for the professional. All I'm saying is that my stuff will be in the same league as his . . . and given my limited budget, I'll settle for mine untill the day I land that dream job and I can afford professionals like Shailoogie.

I don't know who he's arguing with. Himself, maybe.
 
Ok then,

Please go back and read the rules. Once you and Bruce agree on the rules, I'll start a new thread, asking for submissions.

Items open for discussion/change:

Who is judging? The masses of HRBBS (educated and uneducated)? Or some expert (maybe Shailat?)
Who wins, chess was asking for a 2 point spread on a 10 point scale...

Queue
 
Agreed.

I think the panel should consist of both experts and novices; perahps equal amounts of both.

Or just leave it open to the forum for fun.

If Bruce prefers to have experts only and insists on it, then I don't mind . . . but I would at least like to make the recordings available to the forum so we can get some of their opinions, even if it's only for Shits & giggles. :) Although I don't think Shaibutter giggles a whole lot. He seems like a pretty serious guy.
 
Pestrock,

For a man with such little knowledge you have quite a rock head.

It was a debate untill turned it into one with a big mouth.
First it was Bruce and now me.

I was just surprised to see a guy who posts on the BBS asking for a Freq chart so he can put it up on his wall becuase he has no idea were the instruments sit and yet claims (to be proven...)
he can master at home.
Well at least for me you have supplied the laugh of the month.
You dont have to worry about me having fun...I thank you for that.

You must have low self confidence or a small dick......or maybe both.
Maybe get your girlfriend to master for you should could probably get it done faster and better.
 
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