M-Audio Firewire 410 levels

famous beagle

famous beagle

Well-known member
Hi y'all,

I just recently got this interface because I wanted to have more outputs for using external gear. I've got in installed (Windows 7), and it's working like a champ. The only thing is that the input levels seem really hot compared to my Steinberg UR22.

For example, I usually run into my Presonus MP20 as a direct box when recording guitar with amp sims. The UR22 just has two combo jacks for inputs. I would have the input trim knobs all the way down because I was using the MP20. I was able to set the input knob on the MP20 between 9:00 and 12:00 usually and get a good level (around -15db or so) going into Reaper.

When I hooked up the 410, I first ran into the line inputs on the back (it has 2 1/4" line inputs for CH 1 and 2 in the back and two combo jacks for CH 1 and 2 in the front. You can only use one at a time). With my MP20 set the way it was for the UR22, I was easily clipping when not even really digging in.

So I plugged into the front combo jacks, for which the input level knobs and pad button switches work. I had the input knob all the way down, and I was still easily clipping. I engaged the pad, and I could still clip it fairly easily by just digging in a good bit.

I had to basically back the input knob on the MP20 all the way off in order to get the same decent (-15dB or so) level into Reaper.

So, I'm just wondering ... where is all this extra gain coming from? I have the input knob all the way off on the 410 with the pad engaged, and I've rolled the input all the way off on the MP20. What gives?

Anyone have a clue?

Thanks
 
Could be that the Steinberg inputs were set for +4dB and the M-Audio is -10db, that would mean that you would have an extra 14db of gain on the input? Sometimes this can be changed in the settings? But I don't know enough about the M-Audio.

Alan.
 
Hmmm ... I don't think that's it, but I'll check it out. Thanks.

I know that, when I had the Delta 1010LT from M-Audio, you could set the input level for each input via the virtual mixer that came with the driver, but I haven't seen anything like that with the 410 so far.
 
I tried running through my Seventh Circle Audio N72 pre and into the 1/4" line in jacks on the back of the 410. Something is definitely going on.

The N72 doesn't have an output level; it just has a rough gain knob (that moves in steps of 5dB) and then a fine tuning trim knob.

Again, I have to turn the N72 down to the lowest position (which says 15), and I have the trim knob turned to about 10:00. I tried doing a fairly calm vocal, and I'm still easily peaking at -5 or -4db in Reaper.

When I've used this N72 preamp with any other recording device -- including the UR22 but also an M-Audio Delta 1010LT, an M-Audio Delta 44, my Tascam 246 4-track, and a Tascam DP24 digital standalone --- I've always been able to turn up the pre at least 1/4th of the way if not nearly half (depending on the source) and have plenty of headroom.

I mean ... I can't get a low level if I try. It's very strange.
 
I have downloaded the manual for the 410 and it is very sparse on specifications, no mention of maximum inputs.
It does however tell me that the unit is basically "domestic" the input levels are set for -10dBV (316mV) and so any +4dBu gear (1.22V) is going to be way too hot.

My solution would be to make up a jack-jack break "in" box with 12dBish attenuators in it (in fact I would use multiturn pre sets and set exact levels) . The instrument input is a bit different and too much gain here is not an uncommon problem! Again you need an attenuator but if feeding in passive guitar it needs to be a high impedance one and very close, under 1mtr of cable, to the AI input. Assuming the 410 has 1meg guitar inputs, a 1 meg series resistor will give 6dB attenuation. For more chop shunt the input after the 1 meg.

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
I have downloaded the manual for the 410 and it is very sparse on specifications, no mention of maximum inputs.
It does however tell me that the unit is basically "domestic" the input levels are set for -10dBV (316mV) and so any +4dBu gear (1.22V) is going to be way too hot.

My solution would be to make up a jack-jack break "in" box with 12dBish attenuators in it (in fact I would use multiturn pre sets and set exact levels) . The instrument input is a bit different and too much gain here is not an uncommon problem! Again you need an attenuator but if feeding in passive guitar it needs to be a high impedance one and very close, under 1mtr of cable, to the AI input. Assuming the 410 has 1meg guitar inputs, a 1 meg series resistor will give 6dB attenuation. For more chop shunt the input after the 1 meg.

Dave.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips, Dave; I really appreciate you taking the time to examine it. Besides the fact that this is all beyond my current knowledge level and would require a fair amount of research on my part (which wouldn't be a big deal if it were something I deemed really important), I don't know if I want to go into that much trouble for a piece of gear that I got for $65 used. I think I'll most likely move on and try something else.

I just find it incredibly odd that I've never had this issue before, after dealing with at least 4 other interfaces and several 4-track cassette recorders in the past. It seems to me that I hear many more people complaining about the opposite: input levels being too low.
 
The pad does not affect the line inputs on the rear. It only affects the two combo jacks on the front. Like I said, though, even when plugged into the front with the input knob all the way down and the pad engaged, I can still clip fairly easily unless I have the external pre just about turned down completely. It's just the weirdest thing.
 
famous beagle said:
The pad does not affect the line inputs on the rear. It only affects the two combo jacks on the front. Like I said, though, even when plugged into the front with the input knob all the way down and the pad engaged, I can still clip fairly easily unless I have the external pre just about turned down completely. It's just the weirdest thing.
Click to expand...

It's actually not weird at all, as I said before, the M-audio is a -10db standard, the MP20 has a standrad output of +4db, so you are 14db too hot on the input. Some interfaces can be changed between -10db abd +4db, the M-audio you have it seems can't. The pad on the front is for the balanced mic input, you need to pad the line inputs. You can make a line pad very simply to change + 4 db to -10db check out this site you just need a couple of resisters and away you go. I get this around my studio all the time as I use a lot of old gear that was -10db and all my new gear is +4db.

Alan.
 
witzendoz said:
It's actually not weird at all, as I said before, the M-audio is a -10db standard, the MP20 has a standrad output of +4db, so you are 14db too hot on the input. Some interfaces can be changed between -10db abd +4db, the M-audio you have it seems can't. The pad on the front is for the balanced mic input, you need to pad the line inputs. You can make a line pad very simply to change + 4 db to -10db check out this site you just need a couple of resisters and away you go. I get this around my studio all the time as I use a lot of old gear that was -10db and all my new gear is +4db.

Alan.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I didn't quite get what you meant in the above post, but now I see what you're saying. And I guess what I meant with the "weirdest thing" comment was that I've had so many interfaces/recorders before and never had this issue. I guess they were all +4dB without me knowing it?

To be honest, I don't know whether the inputs in the Steinberg were +4 or not. I looked through the manual and didn't see anything about that. There were other specs listed, but nothing specifically said that. I've attached the manual (which is made freely available on their site) so you can take a look at it if you'd like. Maybe you can find it.

Also, I know that the signal coming from the main output jacks (the summing bus) of the MP20 is +4dB, but I'm not using that. I'm using the 1/4" send jacks on each channel. I thought those were -10, but maybe I'm wrong. I couldn't find that in the MP20 manual either.

Nevertheless, I suppose I'll have to check into the link you posted and/or Dave's instructions and take a look at making a line pad.

Thanks very much!
 

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famous beagle said:
Thanks. I didn't quite get what you meant in the above post, but now I see what you're saying. To be honest, I don't know whether the inputs in the Steinberg were +4 or not. I looked through the manual and didn't see anything about that. There were other specs listed, but nothing specifically said that. I've attached the manual (which is made freely available on their site) so you can take a look at it if you'd like. Maybe you can find it.

Also, I know that the signal coming from the main output jacks (the summing bus) of the MP20 is +4dB, but I'm not using that. I'm using the 1/4" send jacks on each channel. I thought those were -10, but maybe I'm wrong. I couldn't find that in the MP20 manual either.

Nevertheless, I suppose I'll have to check into the link you posted and/or Dave's instructions and take a look at making a line pad.

Thanks very much!
Click to expand...

This might be the same problem I ran into with the Tascam I have, it is -10/+4 but it is not DB, it is resistance. So -10 would allow more signal to come through than +4. Or at least this is what is means on the Tascam in the back inputs.
 
DM60 said:
This might be the same problem I ran into with the Tascam I have, it is -10/+4 but it is not DB, it is resistance. So -10 would allow more signal to come through than +4. Or at least this is what is means on the Tascam in the back inputs.
Click to expand...

Which Tascam is that?
 
famous beagle said:
Which Tascam is that?
Click to expand...

The 1800 (also on my sig ;) ) has on the back for the inputs 12-14 a -10/+4 switch. I thought it was DB and switched it to +4 (wanted all of the input I could get), after reading up on it because of the low input, it was resistance and meant the opposite of what I thought.
 
The line inputs on the Steinberg are way high enough for headroom at +24dBu.
The high Z input has the good, but not startling max input Of +5.8dBV =+8dBu or about 2 volts rms. Only the hottest of humbuckers mightily thrashed will clip that.

The speccs for the UR22 are bordering on "pro" the 100quid AI has just gone up yet another notch in my estimation! (other, flashy AI makers take note).........MIDI too!

Dave.
 
ecc83 said:
The line inputs on the Steinberg are way high enough for headroom at +24dBu.
The high Z input has the good, but not startling max input Of +5.8dBV =+8dBu or about 2 volts rms. Only the hottest of humbuckers mightily thrashed will clip that.

The speccs for the UR22 are bordering on "pro" the 100quid AI has just gone up yet another notch in my estimation! (other, flashy AI makers take note).........MIDI too!

Dave.
Click to expand...

Thanks for checking that out. I loved the interface and how issues with it whatsoever. I definitely wouldn't have gotten rid of it if I didn't need more ins and outs.
 
DM60 said:
The 1800 (also on my sig ;) ) has on the back for the inputs 12-14 a -10/+4 switch. I thought it was DB and switched it to +4 (wanted all of the input I could get), after reading up on it because of the low input, it was resistance and meant the opposite of what I thought.
Click to expand...

Well it looks as though I have a US-1800 en route now; I just snagged one off Reverb.com. It (along with the US-1641) was on my short list of possible replacements if this M-audio 410 looked to be too much of a hassle.

I just checked the drivers on Tascam's site. Do you happen to know which one you're using? The latest is 2.05, but I'm wondering if 2.02 is better for Windows 7.

Also, can all four line outs be used at the same time as the L/R Monitor outs? Or what about the digital outs? I couldn't really find anything definitive about that in the manual. It seems as though they should, but on Tascam's site, they call this a 16 in/4 out interface, and it seems odd that they wouldn't count the monitor outs and outputs because they usually want to make the specs sound as impressive as possible.
 
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famous beagle said:
Well it looks as though I have a US-1800 en route now; I just snagged one off Reverb.com. It (along with the US-1641) was on my short list of possible replacements if this M-audio 410 looked to be too much of a hassle.

I just checked the drivers on Tascam's site. Do you happen to know which one you're using? The latest is 2.05, but I'm wondering if 2.02 is better for Windows 7.
Click to expand...


I am using the 2.02, but I can't imagine the 2.05 would be bad since it has been out for over 6 months. I am running this on both Win7 & 8 64bit. Hope this helps.
 
DM60 said:
This might be the same problem I ran into with the Tascam I have, it is -10/+4 but it is not DB, it is resistance. So -10 would allow more signal to come through than +4. Or at least this is what is means on the Tascam in the back inputs.
Click to expand...

Sorry but +4 and -10 is referring to dB rating of the output (or input) not resistance. I can't understand what you mean when you say it is resistance?

An explanation borrowed from this site:

Line level refers to the level or strength of an audio signal - there are two main types of line level.
• Consumer line level is usually -10dBV (0.316 volts) and is what you will find in products like a CD player or hi-fi amplifier.
• Professional line level reference is +4 dBu (1.23 volts or higher) and is found on a mixing desk, wireless system and signal-processing equipment.


A lot of Tascam gear was rated at -10dB due to it being aimed at the home recording market, my old 16 track and my console have tape sends and returns at -10dB I actually made a 24 channel -10dB unbalanced to +4dbB balanced / +4dB balanced to -10dbB unbalanced converter so that my present hard disk recorder can be used with my old console.

Alan
 
Allen, yea I should have went back and referred to the manual. I did know from experimentation that the -10 would a higher signal level and +4 would be less signal.

I now know what the values stand for, the outcome is the same, +4 will provide more pad. I can only assume that the switch is using some type of resistor to pad the input.

Either way, thanks for the correction.
 
The resister circuit is on the link I sent you earlier HERE, you need to build a resister circuit so the quality of the sound is not affected.

Alan.
 
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