Looking for WARMER/Richer vocals

[Todzilla]

I see your point, but warm isn't a fantasy word to me. I know exactly what I mean when I say warm, and by the sounds of things, so do a lot of others.

Absolutely. The problem is that everyone has their own definition of that vague term, so it's quite likely that you and others have a smug sense of what warm means, but no two definitions coincide.

I've been recording since the 1970s and I'm sure I know what you, or anyone else, means by "warmth." Then there's "richness" and "accuracy."

My guess is that your "warmth" or "richness" means coloration, a code word for pleasant distortion, which of course, is the opposite of "accuracy."

I get a lot of what I consider warmth from my Neumann U89 mic into a Neve clone preamp (Seventh Circle Audio's N72). But I'm not sure I can be of much help in getting you what you seek.

 

[gt2008]

Absolutely. The problem is that everyone has their own definition of that vague term, so it's quite likely that you and others have a smug sense of what warm means, but no two definitions coincide.

I've been recording since the 1970s and I'm sure I know what you, or anyone else, means by "warmth." Then there's "richness" and "accuracy."

My guess is that your "warmth" or "richness" means coloration, a code word for pleasant distortion, which of course, is the opposite of "accuracy."

I get a lot of what I consider warmth from my Neumann U89 mic into a Neve clone preamp (Seventh Circle Audio's N72). But I'm not sure I can be of much help in getting you what you seek.

Dropping the name of that mic, alone, helps. Once I go to purchase a new microphone, I will take each listed in this thread, do extensive research on it, and test drive it.

 

[gt2008]

Well, the verdict is in. The Profire's preamp was not faulty, because after exchange I have the same issue.

NYMorningstar,

What would be the benefit of running the Profire with the Omega, if they're both Audio Interfaces>? Would it be purposeless to run two interfaces when each is supposed to be a sort of "all in one," or should I rather look for an interface that will indeed power my KSM-32 and get my $400 back?

The initial reason I wanted a new interface was because I was getting the jist that the Lexicon Omega's preamps aren't going to do my KSM-32 the kind of justice it deserves. Instead of getting a pre-amp alone I figured I could get a new interface and have less equipment running through equipment, and get just a "Better" all in one, Pre included. And of course, the GC jagoffs told me that this preamp is way better than the Lexicon's.

I'm nervous to go to Guitar Center for the third day straight with a third day straight of returns.......but is the egg on their face or mine I dunno. I wanted to get alot done over XMas b/c of a couple of days off, now it's just equipment research it seems. lol

 

[NYMorningstar]

There is no remarkable benefit to both of those interfaces other than having additional channels and options. I was suggesting that only as a way to narrow down the problem.

Having a dedicated preamp for your mic is the best way to go but the 610 is probably adequate for now. Look at it this way, it's pretty darn good for a pre costing less than $100 per channel. You're not going to find much better until you spend a whole lot more. That's one of the problems us equipment whores have. Unless you're expanding, when you buy up, what you have becomes pretty much useless so get some mileage out of what you have.

I'm thinking your mic is a power hog so for now try running the pre on the 610 just below clipping (probably around 3 o'clock - just where the red light blinks occasionally when you sing real loud) with the master volume pretty much the same or a little less and 'turn up your monitors'. That may do the trick for you. I'm not familiar with it but make sure your gain is set correctly in the software end of things too.

When you get a chance, here's a must read thread:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=27030

 

[gt2008]

There is no remarkable benefit to both of those interfaces other than having additional channels and options. I was suggesting that only as a way to narrow down the problem.

Having a dedicated preamp for your mic is the best way to go but the 610 is probably adequate for now. Look at it this way, it's pretty darn good for a pre costing less than $100 per channel. You're not going to find much better until you spend a whole lot more. That's one of the problems us equipment whores have. Unless you're expanding, when you buy up, what you have becomes pretty much useless so get some mileage out of what you have.

I'm thinking your mic is a power hog so for now try running the pre on the 610 just below clipping (probably around 3 o'clock - just where the red light blinks occasionally when you sing real loud) with the master volume pretty much the same or a little less and 'turn up your monitors'. That may do the trick for you. I'm not familiar with it but make sure your gain is set correctly in the software end of things too.

When you get a chance, here's a must read thread:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=27030

On the 610, the software (there's a control panel) for the mic inputs is all the way up, the gain on the mic (to even hear sound........at all) has to be turned to max, the master volume........to max. That's the problem. There's no working at 3-o'clock.....it doesn't work, at all, at that level. This is why I had faulty hardware at first, but now I'm perplexed as I've read reviews of this thing working as a decent preamp.

I did more reading, and it seems that audio-interfaces are known for "not" having the best pre-amps. (confusion builds). However; as far as audio interfaces are concerned, this 610 is being praised all over the net.

So, with that (and wanting to continue upgrading my whole set); I might keep the 610 based on all of its reviews (and also it makes my KRK's sound SOOOOO much clearer than my Lexicon Omega does).

I guess my next pennies will go towards a good pre-amp, which I'll route through my 610 and bipass its preamp.

After that, a new microphone. I'm leaning toward that SM7. The research and penny saving begins. PreAmps!~

 

[The Cancers]

Ugh.

Since you're dead set on spending the money, don't go cheap on the new preamp.
Don't go to guitar center for it, either. They won't have anything that will improve your sound in any significant way (at least, my guitar center doesn't keep any preamps in that would).
Expect to spend at the very least as much as you spent on your new interface, or else you'll be right back on here complaining that it didn't warm up your sound/make a noticeable improvement without introducing a lot of noise or ugly distortion.

 

[msr001]

There seems to be no shortage of opinions posted here so I'll toss mine on the fire and you can take it for what it's worth. I actually own a Beheringer mixer, Lexicon Omega, and two Presonus TubePre pre amps. Here's what I can tell you. First off, just accept the fact that the Beheringer mixer preamps are about as low end as you're going to find on a mixer board. If at all possible, don't bother recording anything through it. If I record, through a mixer board, I use either a Yamaha or a Allen & Heath. The Lexicon Omega has pretty good pre's so I wouldn't worry about that. I also bought my PreSonus Tube Pre's with the idea that I could add some warmth to my vocals when using a large diaphram condenser mic. I haven't been overly impressed by the Presonus units to say the least, but they are OK. The things I think make the most difference in warming up your vocals are these:

1. Mic technique - Use the proximity effect to your advantage. Get close up if you want to capture a warmer richer sound. You can always EQ out too much low end later if you need to, but you can't add in what isn't there to begin with.

2. Good mic - I like large diaphram condensers for vocals. I've never had the pleasure of using a U87, but I'd like to some day. However, in my experience, the large diaphram condenser will give you a better vocal sound than a small diaphram like you might use in micing an instrument.

3. Pre-amp - You can play around with the Presonus if you like. You need to be careful though, because too much through the tube can give you a distorted sound. I generally run just a bit through the tube and it seems to help make it sound a bit more natural.

4. EQ - I generally record with as flat an EQ curve as possible using a mic with a flat response. Once your have your vocal recorded, work with the EQ. Too much top end will give you a harsher sound with more presence. Try a low pass filter up around 8K or so. That seems to tame things down a bit. Then you can work on the mid's and low mid's to warm things up.

There you go. Take it for what it's worth. I'll admit, I'm no expert. Just a guy who plays around a lot in the the studio.

msr

 

[miroslav]

Absolutely. The problem is that everyone has their own definition of that vague term....

I know what you mean, though actually, I think everyone has pretty much the same definition and knows when they hear something as sounding "warm".
The problem (or solution) for the question is that there are probably many ways within the context of any recording and associated signal chain that one can achieve that "warmth"....it's not just a *mic* or just one *EQ* setting, etc....
...and that's why there are usually many suggestions on how to do it.

For most guys who know the techniques and their gear...it's not too hard to get it...
...though I guess the other approach is to just keep buying-n-trying new gear until you hit upon it purely by accident!

 

[miroslav]

Well, the verdict is in. The Profire's preamp was not faulty, because after exchange I have the same issue.

My advice then is for you to hit the M-Audio forums and find people who are using the 610.

I still feel like it's some setting...and looking at the 610 manual, there are soft settings for the Master Volume that could affect things.
I'm sure if it was "normal" for the 610 to behave that way you would not be the first person to bitch about it...so I do think it's how you are using it that is the problem.

Pull everything...start fresh...one by one...

 

[dintymoore]

Instead of "warm", the term I like is "expensive". I want the mic, the reverb and the whole sound to sound really, really expensive.

You could spend a lot and still have a cheap sound. And you could get an expensive sound for not that much dough. I heard my U87 through a Lexicon Omega and to me it sounded expensive, especially with the Pantheon reverb.

 

[bozmillar]

I heard my U87 through a Lexicon Omega and to me it sounded expensive, especially with the Pantheon reverb.

I heard an MXL990 through a behringer preamp and with minimal tweaking, to me it sounded expensive. I think sounding expensive and being expensive have very little to do with each other.

 

[mattr]

Oooo, wowww, I didn't notice that you'd replied to me! I'm glad you appreciated the advice!

Hey, Mr. Knowitall,

Hi

So, still set on the idea that continuing to buy more and more gear will solve your issues?

Meh... "warm".

IMO, elusive terms such as 'warmth' are the kind of thing that you endlessly chase and debate on GS when you're at the top of the game, know your stuff and are in a position to drop thousands a single channel boutique preamps and the like... not when you've openly shown that you understand very little about some of the technicalities of recording and basics such as EQ and compression. Please don't take offence in me saying this - at one point or another everyone on here will have not had a clue how compression works - but the difference is that you just seem like you don't want to admit this.

So, what actually is warmth? I don't think anyone actually knows for sure.

If someone asked me to define it I'd probably say its the very fine line in the low-mids between 'neutral' and 'outright muddy'.

I usually go for a vocal tone that will more easily cut through a mix (what sounds 'warm' by itself can very quickly turn to 'muffled' or 'muddy' when in the context of a mix) but I've achieved what I would class as 'warm' vocals before with a very minimal setup... Rode LDC into stock Motu preamps... good mic technique on behalf of the singer... careful EQ on the low end... heavy but carefully applied compression... left quite dry so it feels quite 'intimate' and 'close'... possibly a cheeky dab of tape saturation emulation.

I didn't avoid or ignore anything.

Maybe it was more outright denial? I refer you to your last paragraph of post #18.

I've been struggling with EQ, and am working on it, and was going to upgrade my preamp regardless.

Fair play, but I would suggest that you concentrate more on the former. Gaining a good solid understanding of recording and mixing techniques would see you a much larger benefit than a small preamp upgrade. Yup, the Omega preamps aren't the greatest, but they're not so diabolical that you shouldn't be able to get reasonably decent results from them.

Your point is what exactly?

As above.

If you're not here to help but only gloat about what others are ignorant of, why do you post here?

I'm offering you advice, as several others have. If you asked a specific question that I could have helped you with, then I would have helped you.

Information sharing forums are always full with a bunch of bitches who whine and cry about "go do your research" when these boards are a way of doing research in and of themselves in the first place.

I've just reread my post several times and can't see where you got this from.

I'll ask again; though, why are you here?

Because I like recording... which I mainly do at home
I've learned a hell of a lot in the last few years, and have gone from asking lots of questions to being one of the ones answering a lot of them.
That doesn't mean I still don't continue to read around, develop skills, share my opinions, participate in discussions, ask questions when I need to, etc.

And this is the crux of what I've been trying to get over... you seem to be trying to avoid the huge amounts that you have to learn when taking up something like this. You can't expect things to happen overnight; you might be working on your techniques for years before you achieve the warm tone that you're looking for in this thread! Heck, some people dedicate their whole careers and lifetimes to it! The whole thing about 'using presets so I don't have to learn all that stuff' is not going to be doing you or your mixes any favours. You've been watching some videos on youtube? Great, but that's just a start. Getting your hands stuck in is the best way to learn.

My gear has barely changed over the last year, yet my recordings have improved an indescribable amount. They're still not as good as they could be, but all that improvement has been down to technique.

And for everyone's unamusement, when I put db in the place of V, it was because I was typing in a rush, which is as per usual. Hardly something to glean on.

I'm afraid to inform you that I'm not convinced it was a typo, as after that you continued to write...

...because that would be double pre-amping the mic...

Hope that sorts out some of the issues you had with my first post

 

[dintymoore]

I always run my mic through a tube compressor after the pre. I use a Summit, and they cost a lot, but I did use the Presonus Comp16 and despite the fact that it's presets I was very impressed with the sound. That's something you might try and I'd have more faith in that than swapping cheap mic pre's. They sell used for $50-75 and are, to me, a bargain.

 

[Rust E-Z]

You may have already tried this but just in case you haven't, pulling out he knob engages a 20db pad, that drops your gain by 20db so make sure that the knob is pushed in and not pulled out.

 

[gt2008]

You may have already tried this but just in case you haven't, pulling out he knob engages a 20db pad, that drops your gain by 20db so make sure that the knob is pushed in and not pulled out.

Appreciate it, althought, I tried it.

My dad's going to look at the Profire tonight. Something's up with it, it can't be so weak that it can't fire up my ksm unless at full power.

As far as the warmth thing goes, I have enough to go off of from posts here, it's a start and I appreciate it.

 

[bozmillar]

My dad's going to look at the Profire tonight. Something's up with it, it can't be so weak that it can't fire up my ksm unless at full power.

I guess the next question is, what's wrong with turning the preamp up all the way? Does it matter, or do you just not feel right about having it above 3:00?

I mean, if it's not adding a bunch of noise or distortion, then by all means, crank it all the way. If you really want it to sit at 3:00, you can remove the knobs and rotate them a bit so they look like they're sitting at 3:00.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just saying it might not matter that you have to crank the preamps.

 

[gt2008]

I guess the next question is, what's wrong with turning the preamp up all the way? Does it matter, or do you just not feel right about having it above 3:00?

I mean, if it's not adding a bunch of noise or distortion, then by all means, crank it all the way. If you really want it to sit at 3:00, you can remove the knobs and rotate them a bit so they look like they're sitting at 3:00.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just saying it might not matter that you have to crank the preamps.

Nah I get what you're saying, and thanks. But there's so little play with the mic volume that it is indeed troubling. See, the master gain also needs to be all the way up. (this causes the actual instrumental being recorded over to have to be CRANKED, and different instrumentals have different sound levels so the "play" with the mic volume needs to be greater. I can currently...... out of 18 dashes on the volume meter, only fluctuate between the 17-th and 18-th dash. 17th dash gives me just enough power to hear the mic, 18th dash gives me clips for even talking. ).

 

[dintymoore]

I heard an MXL990 through a behringer preamp and with minimal tweaking, to me it sounded expensive. I think sounding expensive and being expensive have very little to do with each other.

I wouldn't say "little to do with it" because really expensive gear often sounds good no matter where the knobs are! But your point is right, you don't need to spend a lot to sound expensive - same as dressing good.
And everybody at some point has to make do with what they have, even the guys at the top.

 

[The Cancers]

If I understood you correctly, you need to turn the input gain up so high to hear your vocals over the song playing back. Then your problem is not in the actual preamp, it's in your monitoring chain. If you are able to clip the preamp talking, that's way too loud for recording. You're probably getting a plenty hot signal going in, you just need to adjust the ratios of what you're hearing during playback/recording.
The software monitoring program is most likely exactly the issues. I'd read you have everything turned up to zero (you wrote something like that, forgive me for not going back and finding the exact quote) in that program. Well, that program is (I'm assuming here, but pretty sure) basically a software monitoring/routing mixer. That is, it gives you the tools to decide what things go to your speakers, headphones and other outputs on your interface, and in what amounts. So find the channel in there that controls the level of the song playing back from your recording program (probably labeled something like "from DAW") and turn it down. Make sure your input channel's level is at a decent volume, and you ought to be able to hear yourself fine.

 

[bozmillar]

You don't happen to have the pad engaged on your mic do you?