Looking for WARMER/Richer vocals

G

gt2008

New member
I copied this from an email I sent to Parkway Music, a local store, any help would be appreciated:

Hi,

Need some advice, I’m in a pickle.

I currently run into a $90 Behrenger mixing board, then into a Lexicon Omega, then into my computer. My whole goal is to get a WARMER sound. I record vocals ONLY, and use a Shure KSM32. (I bought at your store).

I looked up stuff about the Shure and it says it’s great for a “natural” sound but not for a “Warm” sound. The guitar center guy told me to go with a Presonus Tube Pre (because my Lexicon pre he says is doo-doo, but the digital converter and stuff the Lexicon has is good, so keep it). He also tole me a Rode NTK. (which I looked up reviews and all say it’s really rich/warm).

I figured he’d give me a good deal on my Shure, it’s a 5+ hundred dollar mic, barely used. He said he could only do $150. I said screw that. So, I got the tube pre by itself to check out how it did for me.

I got it home, plugged from my mic to the tube pre, the tube pre to my Lexicon. Well, there’s 4 buttons on the tube-pre that I’ve no clue what they are and it doesn’t come with a booklet in the box. The “gain” knob he told me would add my “warmness” I was looking for, but if I turn it up it just makes me sound very muffled.

He told me about another preamp while I was at the store but I wanted to keep it simple. I don’t need one with compression and stuff on it, I’m in the middle of an album and my sound is already GOOD, so keeping it basic but a simple warming was all that I wanted. Now, with the volume on the lexicon, the 4 buttons, the gain, and the volume on the presonus, I don’t know, it’s just not simple for me and I don’t have the WARMTH I was looking for.

Should I return the presonus? Should I trade my shure in(to YOU guys?) and get the Rode? I don’t know man. 

The Shure isn’t the mic for my voice. It always sits “too live” in the mix, whereas other artists come in and they sit fine. Here I am now: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=880122&content=songinfo&songID=8363916

Thanks,
 
Oh God... The GC guy is a moron. "Tubes" (especially "tOobS" such as in cheapie "tOoB" gear) have absolutely nothing to do with "warmth" - Even in "true" tube gear - The tubes are rarely in the business of making anything "warm" except the room (as 'real' tube gear tends to run as hot as a pizza oven).

Get the Berry out of the way. The preamp in the Omega, while not 'amazing' is mind-blowing over anything Behringer ever made.

Otherwise, it's a rough call. Something along the lines of the SM7b will certainly get you "warm" (as it's FAR less overly-sensitive than the 32). But something along the lines of the FiveFish Audio preamp (the one designed along the lines of an API preamp) will certainly be a step in the right direction also. But nothing is going to take away the over-sensitivity of the typical LDC.

Heck - You might try a Cascade Fat Head II... Cheap as dirt, wonderful (ribbon) mic. Always forget about that bad boy...
 
Hmm,

I'm not looking to sacrifice any "quality" FOR more warmth, so if those "Cheaper" mics would do that.................please advise.

Also, the pre's you mentioned, Are they 1,000 buttons and built in compression and all of that that I don't want to mess with?

My Lexicon is cool, only Volume knobs! I do a compression pre-set in my recording program and it bypasses my having to learn about all of that stuff because playing it by ear gets my mix up to par with where I want it, just a little too "live" sounding. I guess I'm just lax, and looking for the easiest way into a warmer sound. :(
 
You say it's too "live" sounding. That's usually a word referring to reverberant. Maybe you could record it in a space that has less high reflections. Say on a carpeted floor, or between some Owens Corning 703 panels. This will make your vocals less "live". But that's if my interpretation is correct.

If youre processing with reverbs, you may be adding more high end content as well. Sometimes you can lower that amount of treble signal in the reverb. This can produce a much more natural and warm reverb.

It would be to your benefit to learn the applications of reverb and compression. You'll start to be able to answer these questions yourself. We can always help but you ultimately have the final judgment in taste.

Another way to get help, is to post a clip of your vocals. Then we might be able to address why you don't think they're warm enough. Try eq'ing the signal.

Good luck.
 
I just listened to your clip, sorry I didn't read it on the first pass.

It seems like your mic is capturing your voice pretty well. Try and eq out some of that treble content. Maybe then you'll feel your vocals are more "warm".

Explore your processors beyond their presets. Every song is different and will require different adjustments.
 
Erockrazor said:
You say it's too "live" sounding. That's usually a word referring to reverberant. Maybe you could record it in a space that has less high reflections. Say on a carpeted floor, or between some Owens Corning 703 panels. This will make your vocals less "live". But that's if my interpretation is correct.

If youre processing with reverbs, you may be adding more high end content as well. Sometimes you can lower that amount of treble signal in the reverb. This can produce a much more natural and warm reverb.

It would be to your benefit to learn the applications of reverb and compression. You'll start to be able to answer these questions yourself. We can always help but you ultimately have the final judgment in taste.

Another way to get help, is to post a clip of your vocals. Then we might be able to address why you don't think they're warm enough. Try eq'ing the signal.

Good luck.
Click to expand...

I posted a link to one of my songs in the original post, that's me on the Vocals and doing the vocal mixing.

I think you could be right, my room and reverb has too much high-end added, but people on my mic with a deeper voice seem to sit right in the mix whereas I don't, really, but I don't want to spend $550 on an NTK- by Rode if it's not going to make me sound more rich than the Shure KSM-32.
 
admittingly, all that I EQ is a dynamics processing pre-set called 4:1 very fast attack or another pre-set, and I mess with the 3 traditional knobs: high, mid, low.

I wouldn't know how to hone-in on "treble" without learning book and books on compression it seems and wave/db knowledge............................and I'm in the middle of a project that's sort of time sensitive. urgh. this sucks sometimes.
 
Well, you're ultimately gonna have to learn about compression and EQ if you wanna get any better at this.
This:
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/
is a great resource website run by one of the long-time posters on Homerecording.com Check out the compression tutorial under "online resources." It's not "books and books," it's just about a half-hour's read and is an excellent resource to return to when you've got a problem figuring out what all the buttons and knobs on your compressor do.

Massive was absolutely right with his advice. Get rid of the p.o.s. presonus (and stop listening to salespeople at music stores in general. Their job is to get you to buy crap that you don't need, and, in my experience at least, 90% don't know what they're talking about and push products based on the brochures and what's hot right now), take the behringer out of your signal chain, and pick up one of those fatheads.
Ribbon mics are great for adding warmth to vocals and they often sit in a mix really well.
Just make sure you do some research on ribbon mic use and handling before you make the purchase, as they are generally much more physically sensitive to damage than other microphones.
The lexicon might not be able to provide you enough clean gain to use a ribbon mic with (there are modern ones that are phantom powered and output a lot hotter, but traditionally designed ribbon mics have relatively low outputs compared to other dynamic mics and especially compared to condensers), but you can find an external preamp that will help your sound a lot more than that presonus.
One I haven't heard but have heard really good things about is the Golden Age pre73. Just a gain knob and an output knob to worry about, a really good price on it, and it's a (from the reviews I've read) pretty decent clone of a classic neve preamp.
The combination of that and one of those fathead mics would, I'm betting, give you a really nice warm vocal sound.


And, after writing all that, I finally go listen to your sample track and realize you do hip-hop. Ignore what I just said and go get you a shure SM7b. :D
 
If I switch mic's at all I'd switch to the Rode NTK, or, try out the fat-heads.

I might trade-in my Lexicon Omega, Return the Behrenger Mixing board, Return the presonus, and keep the KSM-32...........................and get what?

It would have to double as my phantom power, sound-card, digital converter, etc. Basically, all that the Lexicon Omega does but just a helluva-lot better.

I'll get roughly $160 back for the presonus, $90 for the Behrenger, and they'll probably rip me off on the Lexicon and give me like $100, so I'll be working with like $350; however, the Lexicon was more than that to begin with. See? I don't fucking know man. I ask for equipment that will produce a "Warmer" / "richer" sound, and I get more complications than I guess I was ready to handle. *headache!*
 
gt2008 said:
Hmm,

I'm not looking to sacrifice any "quality" FOR more warmth, so if those "Cheaper" mics would do that.................please advise.

:(
Click to expand...

If your implying that getting a less expensive DYNAMIC mic will be a compromise in quality your dead wrong. The
sm7 is at the top of the heap in the DYNAMIC mic category. It costs for less to manufacture a DYNAMIC mic than a LARGE DIAPHRAGM CONDENSER mic.
Vocals are the trickiest to get the right mic for and as youve discoverd what works well for one performer may not for another no single mic seems to work well for every vocalist even the holy grail of mics the "U87 vintage, maintained, and modded by a deity". Top engineers end up using a DYNAMIC mic in lieu of mics like that all the time and its usually the sm7.
Your best bet is to try a lot of different mics on voice and see what works best. I know thats not always an option but you should try to either borrow, or rent or try in the store, or maybe rent some time in a studio with a large mic closet to find YOUR mic.
If you cant do that just buy the sm7, it will probably work out great, look up sm7 in the search function and youll see what Massive is talking about.
 
It's like $350 though, new, and Guitar Center dirtbags only want to give me $150 for my barely used $550 KSM-32.

I can get my $160 back from returning the presonus, roughly $90 back from returning the Behrenger mixer, then I'm stuck what to do. It would be rough upgrading mic's and losing $400 on the deal......................it would also be rough trading in my $400 Lexicon for like $100 only to need something for $400 anyways and have it be "not that much better,"

I'd need something to replace all of the lexicon's functions if I'm going to make the three trade ins and get a good good piece of equipment that does preamp, soundcard, and digi conv.

I'm asking around the net for opinions. I'll see i guess.
 
You could consider a used mic. sm7 is usally between 200 to 250 from ebay or craigslist.
If it weren't for the used market I wouldn't have a studio, and given the perception of the economy these days, there are some fantastic deals to be had.
 
That's a good idea also Rust Ez, thanks.

I've just got a headache about this whole thing. Basically, the way the guy explained it to me:

"you paid $400 for the Omega and it's got top of the line sound card top of the line digital converter, so how good do you think its' pre amp is going to be when all your money basically paid for those two things? Not very."

So he suggested a not-so pricey tube pre in the presonus. I got it home, and Connected it, and the Gain was very grainy............a WORSE sound than my already existing sound.

Now, it COULD BE that my Lexicon's 48db button was on, I have to see when I go home, because that would be double pre-amping the mic..............

But fuck man. A $400 piece of equipment sucks at its most important (to me) function (preamp)......................a $550 microphone trades-in at $150 (?!?!?!), I can't have my real-time effects because AGAIN if I'm using the Behrenger in my mix I'm "double pre-amping," so I'm a stressed assed person with this whole thing, and all I wanted was a tweak toward a warmer, fuller sound that sits better in my mix.
 
To me the Lexicon Omega's mic pre's aren't bad at all. I'd go with them.

I think the warm part comes more from the marriage of the singer and the mic. It could be a cheap mic (if you're lucky) or an expensive mic (more often).

The singer+mic should sound almost there before any compression, eq or effects. If there were any rules, #1 rule of recording would probably be "fix it in the source".

Either that or "listen".
 
gt2008 said:
admittingly, all that I EQ is a dynamics processing pre-set called 4:1 very fast attack or another pre-set, and I mess with the 3 traditional knobs: high, mid, low.

I wouldn't know how to hone-in on "treble" without learning book and books on compression it seems and wave/db knowledge............................and I'm in the middle of a project that's sort of time sensitive. urgh. this sucks sometimes.
Click to expand...

Well, if you don't wanna learn how to use the tools at your disposal, and time is an issue, then go to a studio, pay a professional to do it for you :rolleyes:
 
I think the fact that you think there is such a thing as warm gear is what's holding you back here. Warm just doesn't actually mean anything.

What you should do is ditch the idea of getting a "warm" sound and figure out what is actually going wrong. If every time I try to make speghetti I boil the water until it's gone and burn the pasta, buying a new pot isn't going to fix my problem. Figuring out the fact that I'm leaving my pot on the burner too long is what I need to do.

Same thing here. If your vocals don't sound right, you're probably not doing something right, and new gear isn't going to fix that.
 
I understand this. I'm not prepared to go through renting/returning, renting/returning mic's, that's the only schlub I've got with leaving my Lexicon and just finding the perfect mic (for me).


I guess I'll see if Guitar center wants to let me try mic's out in the store, but I also have this KSM-32 I'd like to get more than $150 for since it's a $400 loss on investment. Gggggggrrrrrr.
 
bozmillar said:
I think the fact that you think there is such a thing as warm gear is what's holding you back here. Warm just doesn't actually mean anything.

What you should do is ditch the idea of getting a "warm" sound and figure out what is actually going wrong. If every time I try to make speghetti I boil the water until it's gone and burn the pasta, buying a new pot isn't going to fix my problem. Figuring out the fact that I'm leaving my pot on the burner too long is what I need to do.

Same thing here. If your vocals don't sound right, you're probably not doing something right, and new gear isn't going to fix that.
Click to expand...


With all due respect, I've been looking up reviews upon reviews and tons of mics are known for their warmth. Tons, and tons.

The problem is that it's not my mixing as you'd presume, because the right guys come into my crib and lay down some vocals and I get them perfectly in the mix because they have a richer voice which complements the ksm-32 because it DOESN'T add richness.

The mic just isn't for me, and so it is an equipment issue. I'll have to disagree here.
 
quick question to the die hards:

Which is better to richen the sound: a tube pre, or a tube microphone, or a dynamic microphone?
 
gt2008 said:
With all due respect, I've been looking up reviews upon reviews and tons of mics are known for their warmth. Tons, and tons.
Click to expand...

Of course the reviews say they are warm. Every description of every microphone ever made mentions that it's warm. That's because warm is a word that doesn't mean anything. It's a word people use to describe a sound that they like but don't know why they like it.

It's like calling a car sexy or a TV elegant. It's a made up word used to describe something that people don't understand. That's why all this tube crap sells on the basis of being warm. People hear that it's warm, they believe that it's warm and pass the news on to everyone that it's warm.
 
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