Life Doesn't Rhyme

[TaoManna Don]

I think I'll take your advice, Don, and post some lyrics in their own thread. I hope you will offer more insight/alternatives/criticism/encouragement.

I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on my writing from other people, so I don't know what to expect. Luckily, your comments have gotten me thinking that I shouldn't even be concerned with "what to expect." How can I grow as a writer unless I am willing to "go public?!?"

Thank you again and please accept my apologies for dragging this thread away from its original topic!

Chris

Chris,
Nothing for you to apologize for. I asked for unrhymed verses and that's what you gave me -- and great ones at that. I realize you didn't use any of the techniques that I described earlier in the thread and that your lyric avoids the commercial formulas that I usually promote. But there is no denying the quality of your "unrhymed" verses; and that is the main thrust of this "Life Doesn't Rhyme" thread. Thank you for participating. Thank you for showing how far unrhymed verses can go toward allowing the songwriter to say what he really wants to say.

As far as being concerned about comments you might get by "going public", I understand how you feel. I also offer a few words of caution. There are lots of songwriter's forums out there. Some (like this one) are usually friendly, helpful places; some forums will quickly test your paitence and might even distract you from songwriting, if you let them. There will be people (like me) who have their own agenda and will try to guide you toward the type of writing they prefer. Some of the comments you get may be confusing and energy-draining; some may even be mean-spirited. A well informed, thick-skinned writer will learn to overlook comments that aren't useful and benefit from the well-intended fresh perspective of others. Most of your progress will come from independent study, private expert advice (if you can find it), and writing lots of songs. Forums like this have their place in a songwriter's world. The interaction can be stimulating and inspiring; and occasionally you might learn something useful.

With all that said, I encourage you to participate here and on other forums. That participation can certainly become an important part of your growth as a songwriter.

Keep writing,
Don

 

[Toddskins]

Short vs. long

Very few long songs ever were successful. American Pie, Xanadu (Rush), and Remember the Future (Nektar), come to mind.

If you are not John Steinbeck or Edgar Allan Poe... keep it short.

I cannot read posts that are more than a few sentences.

 

[TaoManna Don]

Very few long songs ever were successful. American Pie, Xanadu (Rush), and Remember the Future (Nektar), come to mind.

If you are not John Steinbeck or Edgar Allan Poe... keep it short.

I cannot read posts that are more than a few sentences.

"Hey Jude" is another good example of a successful long song. You are correct though. Even if you are writing songs just for your friends, songs that go much over three minutes have trouble holding the listener's attention. That's even more true today, with the short attention span of young people.

I also agree with the sentiment of what I think you are refering to in your last sentence. I still have more to say on the general subject of this thread but I plan to do it in a series of posts, and give people time to read and comment. Then I will post more.

Since you posted "I cannot read posts that are more than a few sentences" under this thread, I assume that some of my posts in this thread are too long to hold your attention. I'm not sure what to do about that; but I wish it weren't true. Some of my posts here are still a bit long, I know. If some people is tuning out after a few sentences, much of the message is lost. If this thread only contains stuff you know or stuff you don't agree with, then, of course, you will stop reading the thread unless you want to offer a different opinion. But if you are open to the ideas being posted here, I hope you will tough it out and read even the long posts. I am encouraging more of the observers represented by the 800 plus "view count" to post something here that indicates whether or not the "Life Doesn't Rhyme" thread is helpful to you. I know most of the "views" are from the same small group of people who are posting to the thread. But I expect that around fifty to one hundred other people have viewed the thread and not posted. It would be great to know if they are finding anything useful here.

So Toddskins, thank you for posting even if you weren't able to struggle through my longer posts.

Keep writing,
Don

 

[jeap]

ha!

i thought some of MY posts were long!

don gets the "too many words" prize!

congratulations!

 

[TaoManna Don]

ha!

i thought some of MY posts were long!

don gets the "too many words" prize!

congratulations!

Thank you, thank you. I'd like to thank the Academy for this honor; and a special thanks to all those who gave so much of their time struggling through my posts. And a special shout out to anyone who actually got anything useful from their struggles.

I have so much more I'd like to say but the award show is already running long; so I'll turn it back over to our lovely host "Jeap."

(I end most of my posts with "Keep writing" and, unfortunately, I keep taking my own advice and keep writing and writing and writing and writing. I am the energizer bunny of thread posting)

 

[chrisvin]

Don,

What sets you apart is that you are not writing just to write! You are writing to instruct and any attempt at writing in an instructive fashion necessarily requires more, not fewer, words. In my experience, good instructors try to balance the requirements of their audience. They, whenever possible, lean toward the student representing the lowest common denominator while disseminating enough additional information to keep the interest of the more "advanced" student. But, in the words of Dennis Miller, I could be wrong!

Chris

PS - Still haven't posted anything on the main board, but here's another entry for "life doesn't rhyme".......would love to know what you think!

Fade Away (by Chris Vinson)

Smothered glance at the door,
tall glass and a shrug.
'Cause it's not her
just another you
lookin' 'round for another her.

A gathering of souls;
some dying, some lost.
All of them lonely
and waiting alone,
next open door could be for you.

Would you take her in your arms,
slide on out the door?
Would you be what you think you are now
or let it all just fade away?
Will it all just fade away?
Will you let it fade
away......?

Another empty filled,
another hour gone.
Swimming eyes half-closed;
thinking you're wishing
for something you might have had once.

Jukebox plays its assault,
the last call requiem.
You stand up slowly,
ease out the same way,
hope the next day's not so alone.

Would you do this all again,
waste another day?
Would you change what you know you've become
or let it all just fade away?
Will it all just fade away?
Will you let it fade
away......?

 

[Rokket]

Since you posted "I cannot read posts that are more than a few sentences" under this thread, I assume that some of my posts in this thread are too long to hold your attention. I'm not sure what to do about that; but I wish it weren't true.

One thing you might look at doing, Don, is to keep a single post to a paragraph, or just a few sentences...

 

[Rokket]

See, this way you can get your point across and be a little easier on the eyes of the MTV generation....

But then someone will flame you for post padding, LOL!

But it would help to get your point across...

 

[TaoManna Don]

Chris,

I have read your song "Fade Away." First, let me say that the talent I saw in "Lost For Words" was not a fluke. "Fade Away" is another wonderful song. Right now I have a very bad cold and can't really comment intelligently on your song; but, under the right circumstances (and when I feel better), I would like to have a number of on-line discussions right here with you about this song and offer suggestions that could lead it to becoming more "commercial." The path I will try to lead you down is fraught with distractions and has many detractors. One possible negative outcome will be that you might become frustrated with the attempt to change your song in any way. If the song is in a finished state then we should not even try it. If you are not already in love with the song and are interested in developing traditional songwriting skills, this could be a positive thing in your songwriting development.

Not everyone is willing or even able to change the style of writing they have become used to. You may be one of those people. If you are, this process will be unpleasant and will end quickly. No hard feelings from me if that happens. You are already a great songwriter. This could make you better; but it might make you worse. If it looks like that is happening, we'll need to back up and forget it every happened.

One good thing: you can still use your current technique to get to the current state of "Fade Away" or any future song. The next step will just be a rewrite.

Another word of caution: I am in awe of your ability to create good lines of lyric. If we get to a point where I need to offer an example of a different way to say something, you will need to be able to overlook my lesser songwriting skill. There is an old saying. "Those who can -- do. Those who can't -- teach." That is supposed to be an insult to teachers but, in reality, the truth of that statement (with a few notable exceptions) is one I readily accept; I feel thankful there are those lack skill but have the knowledge and desire to teach those who might possess that skill.

If we begin this process it may take several weeks or even months. And we may reach an impass where we cannot agree. Should that happen, we'll just need to stop and accept whatever came from the process.

Any lyrical suggestions I might offer will be yours to freely use without credit to me.

Let me know by posting an answer here if you want to work with me on this song.

Keep writing,
Don

 

[TaoManna Don]

One thing you might look at doing, Don, is to keep a single post to a paragraph, or just a few sentences...

See, this way you can get your point across and be a little easier on the eyes of the MTV generation....

But then someone will flame you for post padding, LOL!

But it would help to get your point across...

All you have to do is look at my post count over the past three years and anyone should be able to see that "post padding" is not important to me. But you're right. That probably would not stop the "flames."

As much as I see your's and the others' points about long posts, I don't see how I can change the way I post now. Hopefully, some of those who contribute to the view count are able to trudge through and find something useful.

On the other hand, maybe I could link to videos of sexy women for the MTV crowd. Apparently, it doesn't really matter what you have to say, as long as there is an over-processed music bed with a good beat and young girls doing stuff that would have gotten them arrested in my day.

By the way, how your song with unrhymed verses coming?

Keep writing,
Don

 

[chrisvin]

Hi Don,

You writing "it might make you worse" is scary, but you also added that "you can still use your current technique." I'm thinking that getting instruction won't do anything but broaden my otherwise poorly outfitted toolbox!

BTW, I've found I tend to fall in love with melody much more so than lyric. The melody always opens the door for me. Even if I think the lyrics suck, I can still love a song for the melody. If the lyrics pull me further into the song, more the better. A song with a melody that sucks (to my ears anyway) may have the best lyrics ever written, but it won't induce a REAL emotional response within me. (Unless, "God that song sucks!" denotes the desired emotional response!!)

Having said all that, where/how do you want to start?

Chris