Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
I just wanted to give this thread a bump so that it doesn't fade away just yet. I am sure there are some new or young writers who can benefit from this.
So...
*BUMP*
So...
*BUMP*
T
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
A challenge for those interested in unrhymed verses.
In a few months I hope to post a song inspired by Rokket's song "Living This Life" posted under his thread "Lyrics with no title yet." He gave me permission to borrow his idea and a few words from his song to create a version with unrhymed verses. I was so inspired by his good work that I wrote my version in a couple of hours and then thought about asking him for permission to use parts of his song. He generously said yes. When I get my song "This Is Not The Life I Wanted." recorded, I'll post the lyrics and a link to the demo on this thread. It will be an example of a complete song with unrhymed verses. It also has an unrhymed bridge section. The chorus uses the same rhymes that Rokket uses in his version but my chorus has a different melody and feel.
Below is a challenge for those of you interested in writing unrhymed verses.
There are many advantages to unrhymed verses. When you don't use rhymes it can be much easier to say what you want to say in the song. The rhymes aren't there to limit you and interfere with the creative process. To get unrhymed verses to sound right, you have to vary the length and/or meter of the lines within the verse. Lines of similar length and meter beg loudly for end rhymes; it's hard to ignore that urge to put a rhyme at the end of some lines, unless the normally rhymed line is different in meter and/or lenght from its counterpart.
Unrhymed lines with different lengths and/or meter sound interesting and different from other songs. You can hear those unrhymed lines over and over and they still sound new and fresh. And when the rhymed chorus comes in, the rhymes sound so sweet because you had to wait for them.
If you use the method I often use to write lyrics, unrhymed lines almost write themselves sometimes. I begin by writing a plain english summary of the song. I work on the summary until I have a title. I never start writing lyrics before I have the song's title. The title needs to appear in the verses of AABA songs and in the chorus of ABAB songs (like Rokket's song). I can't write those parts until I have my title. If the song has a chorus (the B in ABAB), the summary will help me write the chorus.
But before I start writing the chorus I write in plain english what I want to say in each verse and the bridge (if the song has one). I make sure the verses have a logical flow and they support the summary and the title. If the song has a bridge, I write in plain english some new important information for the bridge section -- something that the song needs to say, but won't fit in the verses. The inclusion of a bridge will sometimes have an effect on what you want to say in the verses, especially if you want to reveal some important new fact in the bridge. When I am done, I will have at least a paragraph for each section (verses, chorus, bridge) of the song.
Once I have all that written down I begin with the first verse. Sometimes I use lines from my first verse description almost verbatum. I let the lines flow naturally and don't concern myself too much with line length or meter. Once I have a rough first verse, I work with it until all the words are singable and I don't feel any urges to use rhymes. When I am happy with the first verse, I work on the other verses (sometimes I jump to the chorus at this point). When I write the other verses I try to match closely (not perfectly) the line length and meter from the first verse. This will make it possible to sing each verse with the same melody -- an important part of making the song memorable.
When I write the chorus I make sure that it sounds different from the verses. Using unrhymed verses makes that part easy. The tight rhymed lines of the chorus naturally will be different from the free unrhymed verses. I make sure the chorus sumarizes the song well and the title appears at least once; twice or three times is better. The chorus may be the only part your listeners memorize, so it needs to sound good and be easily sung.
I usually write the bridge last. Sometimes I use rhymes here and sometimes I don't. If the bridge doesn't pull it's weight and make the song better, I drop it.
If the song is an AABA song (with a bridge and no chorus), the writing process is pretty much the same as above. I just don't write a chorus section. The verses are much more important in this song form. They have to hold your interest without leading up to a memorable chorus; and (as I said above) the title must appear in each verse. It should appear in the exact same position (same line) in at least two of the verses.
OK, here is the challange:
Using the above writing technique develop a new song. Write at least the first verse using no rhymes and post it to this thread. Let's see what you can do with unrhymed verses. If you get inspired to write a complete song, start a new thread; but post your first verse here. I think it would be great to compare several songwriter's work right here using the method I described above.
Good luck and...
Keep writing,
Don
In a few months I hope to post a song inspired by Rokket's song "Living This Life" posted under his thread "Lyrics with no title yet." He gave me permission to borrow his idea and a few words from his song to create a version with unrhymed verses. I was so inspired by his good work that I wrote my version in a couple of hours and then thought about asking him for permission to use parts of his song. He generously said yes. When I get my song "This Is Not The Life I Wanted." recorded, I'll post the lyrics and a link to the demo on this thread. It will be an example of a complete song with unrhymed verses. It also has an unrhymed bridge section. The chorus uses the same rhymes that Rokket uses in his version but my chorus has a different melody and feel.
Below is a challenge for those of you interested in writing unrhymed verses.
There are many advantages to unrhymed verses. When you don't use rhymes it can be much easier to say what you want to say in the song. The rhymes aren't there to limit you and interfere with the creative process. To get unrhymed verses to sound right, you have to vary the length and/or meter of the lines within the verse. Lines of similar length and meter beg loudly for end rhymes; it's hard to ignore that urge to put a rhyme at the end of some lines, unless the normally rhymed line is different in meter and/or lenght from its counterpart.
Unrhymed lines with different lengths and/or meter sound interesting and different from other songs. You can hear those unrhymed lines over and over and they still sound new and fresh. And when the rhymed chorus comes in, the rhymes sound so sweet because you had to wait for them.
If you use the method I often use to write lyrics, unrhymed lines almost write themselves sometimes. I begin by writing a plain english summary of the song. I work on the summary until I have a title. I never start writing lyrics before I have the song's title. The title needs to appear in the verses of AABA songs and in the chorus of ABAB songs (like Rokket's song). I can't write those parts until I have my title. If the song has a chorus (the B in ABAB), the summary will help me write the chorus.
But before I start writing the chorus I write in plain english what I want to say in each verse and the bridge (if the song has one). I make sure the verses have a logical flow and they support the summary and the title. If the song has a bridge, I write in plain english some new important information for the bridge section -- something that the song needs to say, but won't fit in the verses. The inclusion of a bridge will sometimes have an effect on what you want to say in the verses, especially if you want to reveal some important new fact in the bridge. When I am done, I will have at least a paragraph for each section (verses, chorus, bridge) of the song.
Once I have all that written down I begin with the first verse. Sometimes I use lines from my first verse description almost verbatum. I let the lines flow naturally and don't concern myself too much with line length or meter. Once I have a rough first verse, I work with it until all the words are singable and I don't feel any urges to use rhymes. When I am happy with the first verse, I work on the other verses (sometimes I jump to the chorus at this point). When I write the other verses I try to match closely (not perfectly) the line length and meter from the first verse. This will make it possible to sing each verse with the same melody -- an important part of making the song memorable.
When I write the chorus I make sure that it sounds different from the verses. Using unrhymed verses makes that part easy. The tight rhymed lines of the chorus naturally will be different from the free unrhymed verses. I make sure the chorus sumarizes the song well and the title appears at least once; twice or three times is better. The chorus may be the only part your listeners memorize, so it needs to sound good and be easily sung.
I usually write the bridge last. Sometimes I use rhymes here and sometimes I don't. If the bridge doesn't pull it's weight and make the song better, I drop it.
If the song is an AABA song (with a bridge and no chorus), the writing process is pretty much the same as above. I just don't write a chorus section. The verses are much more important in this song form. They have to hold your interest without leading up to a memorable chorus; and (as I said above) the title must appear in each verse. It should appear in the exact same position (same line) in at least two of the verses.
OK, here is the challange:
Using the above writing technique develop a new song. Write at least the first verse using no rhymes and post it to this thread. Let's see what you can do with unrhymed verses. If you get inspired to write a complete song, start a new thread; but post your first verse here. I think it would be great to compare several songwriter's work right here using the method I described above.
Good luck and...
Keep writing,
Don
Last edited:
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
I'll give it a shot. I don't know how long it will take me, but I will try it.
T
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
Rokket said:
Thanks Rokket. You certainly have the talent to write a great song with unrhymed verses. I hope many others will join you and give it a try. I think you will all be very pleased with the results.
By the way, although my writing method borrows heavily from a lot of existing methods, my approach in total is different enough (at least in my opinion) to have it's own name. I described above part of what I call the "TaoManna Songwriting Method."
Keep writing,
Don
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
Well, I appreciate the ego stroke! I am going to print out your post and study it a bit more. You should look into getting in copyrighted or whatever you have to do to it if it's effective and can be taught....TaoManna Don said:
T
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
Rokket said:
I've been sprinkling it over the internet for years in bits and pieces. I guess I should try to pull it all together in one place; I'm just not sure it's worth the effort. One of the most frustrating things about offering songwriters advice on internet forums is that there is almost no way to know if you're actually helping. Most of my advice seems to go ignored, although a polite "thank you" is often offered. Although the view count on this thread is pretty high, only a few people actually responded here. I have no way of knowing what the non-responders even think about what I have posted. So there is no way to know if my effort is helpful or a waste of my time and their's.
One of the things I had hoped to do by making the challenge was learn how many people are really interested in what I have to say. I may decide to spend less time doing this for a while; but whether I do or whether I don't....
Keep writing,
Don
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
I've kinda gotten lost on other things too, and haven't written anything yet. I was hoping you would post your version of my song, even without the music?
I am messing with an online collab in the mp3 clinic, and it seems that it's starting to get some interest...
I am messing with an online collab in the mp3 clinic, and it seems that it's starting to get some interest...
C
chrisvin
New member
First post
Hello....here comes a new guy's first post! I have an odd dilemma with some lyrics I've written. The lyrics are:
Lost For Words (by Chris Vinson)
He spies him in the distance
and remembers
pain and shame and little else.
He watches him close in,
studies the face
that will be his, tries not to notice.
He stands next to him
lost for words.
Wishes and regrets the silence.
He tries to talk to him
as he would anyone.
Where does he start, when will this end.
He stands all alone now,
wonders about
how it should have been, hoped for much better.
Did he learn from him?
Not sure if
he has become the question or the answer.
He spies him in the distance
and remembers
pain and shame and little else.
I feel like it tells the story, but it seems to violate a basic concept of writing; perspective. I want the perspective to be of someone who is "out of body" and watching themselves interact with another person. My trouble is that, although I know the difference between "he" and "him," I'm not sure a casual listener (or reader) will be able to. So I rewrote it in a different tense:
I see him in the distance (can't say I spied..I SPY....yuck!!)
and remember
pain and shame and little else.
I watch him closing in,
study the face
that will be mine, try not to notice.
I stand next to him
lost for words.
Wish for and regret the silence.
I try to talk to him
as I would anyone.
Where do I start, when will this end?
I stand all alone now,
wonder about
how it should have been, hoped for much better.
Did I learn from him?
Not sure if
I have become the question or the answer.
I see him in the distance
and remember
pain and shame and little else.
My dilemma is I don't like the rewrite near as much. Since I've got an existing melody for the lyrics, the meter has to stay pretty much the same. Do I stick with the original, use the rewrite, try yet another rewrite, scrap it because it's crap to begin with, or is there another direction to take?
All donations accepted (and hopefully appreciated!!)!
Chris
Hello....here comes a new guy's first post! I have an odd dilemma with some lyrics I've written. The lyrics are:
Lost For Words (by Chris Vinson)
He spies him in the distance
and remembers
pain and shame and little else.
He watches him close in,
studies the face
that will be his, tries not to notice.
He stands next to him
lost for words.
Wishes and regrets the silence.
He tries to talk to him
as he would anyone.
Where does he start, when will this end.
He stands all alone now,
wonders about
how it should have been, hoped for much better.
Did he learn from him?
Not sure if
he has become the question or the answer.
He spies him in the distance
and remembers
pain and shame and little else.
I feel like it tells the story, but it seems to violate a basic concept of writing; perspective. I want the perspective to be of someone who is "out of body" and watching themselves interact with another person. My trouble is that, although I know the difference between "he" and "him," I'm not sure a casual listener (or reader) will be able to. So I rewrote it in a different tense:
I see him in the distance (can't say I spied..I SPY....yuck!!)
and remember
pain and shame and little else.
I watch him closing in,
study the face
that will be mine, try not to notice.
I stand next to him
lost for words.
Wish for and regret the silence.
I try to talk to him
as I would anyone.
Where do I start, when will this end?
I stand all alone now,
wonder about
how it should have been, hoped for much better.
Did I learn from him?
Not sure if
I have become the question or the answer.
I see him in the distance
and remember
pain and shame and little else.
My dilemma is I don't like the rewrite near as much. Since I've got an existing melody for the lyrics, the meter has to stay pretty much the same. Do I stick with the original, use the rewrite, try yet another rewrite, scrap it because it's crap to begin with, or is there another direction to take?
All donations accepted (and hopefully appreciated!!)!
Chris
T
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
Rokket said:
I'll think about posting it without music; but I usually try to keep to what I originally say I'm going to do. In fact, I'm a little concerned about potential comparisons between the two songs. Some might assume that, after everything I have written in this thread, I might think my version is better than yours. You may even have that feeling already. I assure you, I don't think mine is better than yours. Mine is just different.
The one thing I don't want to do here is get people distracted from their own writing by arguing about which song is better or which way of writing is better. My only desire is to offer a way of writing for everyone to consider. Serious songs will benefit most; but even songs that have lots of rhymes can be improved by the different line length and meter changes required by non-rhymed verses.
It can always improve your writing to try new techniques. But one of the great things about writing songs is that you can ignore techniques and rules and just write; and that great feeling of doing something new and creative will still be in your heart.
Keep writing,
Don
T
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
chrisvin said:
Chris,
I have read your song. I like this version better. It's more personal; that's what you need in this song about fathers and sons. I wish I had more time; but I have to get off line.
Later today or tomorrow, I'll come back and offer some suggestions and critique. If you are determined to make no changes to the melody, my advice won't be useful. You always need the flexibility to make major changes in a rewrite. Examine whatever is chaining you down and make certain those chains actually exist. This song is good enough to deserve the freedom of the option to make big changes.
Keep writing,
Don
T
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
Chris,
I have taken a long hard look at your song "Lost For Words." When I left my response yesterday I thought I would come back and offer you some great advice on how to make it more commercial by adding a chorus that included repeats of the title, tightening up the rhythm of the lyric, etc. I even tried to write a sample chorus to show you an example of what I meant. No matter how I tried, no chorus I wrote came anywhere near matching the wonderful quality of your lyric. This song is powerful. Chris, you have the talent of a very good songwriter and the heart of a poet.
I admire your skill and hope you will post more for us to look at. I suggest you post this song and any others in a separate thread so that more people will see it.
Keep writing,
Don
I have taken a long hard look at your song "Lost For Words." When I left my response yesterday I thought I would come back and offer you some great advice on how to make it more commercial by adding a chorus that included repeats of the title, tightening up the rhythm of the lyric, etc. I even tried to write a sample chorus to show you an example of what I meant. No matter how I tried, no chorus I wrote came anywhere near matching the wonderful quality of your lyric. This song is powerful. Chris, you have the talent of a very good songwriter and the heart of a poet.
I admire your skill and hope you will post more for us to look at. I suggest you post this song and any others in a separate thread so that more people will see it.
Keep writing,
Don
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
TaoManna Don said:
Actually, Don, it's for my own edification that I asked you to do it. I wanted to see your perspective on writing a non-rhyming verse before I tackled it. I am not concerned about what others may think. If you don't want to post it, can you PM it to me? I'd really like to see it....
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
Also, when I do write my own non-rhymed verse, it's going to be a love song to my wife... 
T
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
Rokket said:
Wish granted. Check your messages. Keep in mind that I make no claims of great skill; but it is an example of a real song with unrhymed verses.
Thanks for the inspiration.
Keep writing,
Don
T
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
Rokket said:Also, when I do write my own non-rhymed verse, it's going to be a love song to my wife...
She may fall in love all over again.
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
I got it and responded. Thanks again. I am going to start on my song this afternoon when things get quiet around here...TaoManna Don said:
Rokket
Trailing Behind Again
I hope so.....TaoManna Don said:
C
chrisvin
New member
Don,
Thank you for the words of encouragement. Although I think that....
I've just purchased the gear required to create a decent quality recording, so maybe soon I can let you hear the accompanying tune/melody. I think that if you do hear it, you could relate to my difficulty trying do a rewrite now.
I'll try to post some additional lyrics when I have a little bit more time; maybe later this evening....gotta go get a haircut first!!!
Thanks again,
Chris
Thank you for the words of encouragement. Although I think that....
...may be a bit of an overstatement, I DO appreciate the sentiment!!TaoManna Don said:
I've just purchased the gear required to create a decent quality recording, so maybe soon I can let you hear the accompanying tune/melody. I think that if you do hear it, you could relate to my difficulty trying do a rewrite now.
I'll try to post some additional lyrics when I have a little bit more time; maybe later this evening....gotta go get a haircut first!!!
Thanks again,
Chris
T
TaoManna Don
man of [quite a]few words
chrisvin said:
Did I overdo the praise? Sorry about that. You have my permission to dial it back to the highest praise you feel comfortable with. Many of the lines in your lyric were quite moving and poetically insightful. The message was one to which many fathers and sons can relate. Good stuff! I called it the way I saw it. If "Lost For Words" is representative of the rest of your work, brace yourself for more praise.
I look forward to seeing more from you.
Keep writing,
Don
C
chrisvin
New member
I think I'll take your advice, Don, and post some lyrics in their own thread. I hope you will offer more insight/alternatives/criticism/encouragement.
I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on my writing from other people, so I don't know what to expect. Luckily, your comments have gotten me thinking that I shouldn't even be concerned with "what to expect." How can I grow as a writer unless I am willing to "go public?!?"
Thank you again and please accept my apologies for dragging this thread away from its original topic!
Chris
I haven't gotten a lot of feedback on my writing from other people, so I don't know what to expect. Luckily, your comments have gotten me thinking that I shouldn't even be concerned with "what to expect." How can I grow as a writer unless I am willing to "go public?!?"
Thank you again and please accept my apologies for dragging this thread away from its original topic!
Chris