large condenser mic, take me to kick heaven

[endserenading81]

I have seen a lot of photos of my favorite bands using large condenser mics in the studio, for the KICK. I was wondering if this is a beautiful way to go, and if so, what is a good large condenser that will take the high SPLs.
Thanks,
Rob

 

[Han]

It's not the high spl that can damage the condenser, it's the blast of air of a kick that can stretch the diaphragm.

http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/196/1221/?SQ=05da141ad2267a718c0cd8679090d426

 

[Big Kenny]

Re20 still "kicks" ass

 

[CanopuS]

Han - Does this mean that if I have a condensor basically about 4" from the very bottom of the kick aiming up at it (and the outer skin is still on, so no air), it shouldn't pose a problem? I'm happy with the results...

 

[Lanstar0]

I like the mixture of dynamic and condensor on kick - something like an ATM25 inside the kick and and LD condensor a couple feet away from the kick. You can even put another mic on the beater side pointing towards the beater...

 

[Han]

Han - Does this mean that if I have a condensor basically about 4" from the very bottom of the kick aiming up at it (and the outer skin is still on, so no air), it shouldn't pose a problem? I'm happy with the results...

Well, I'm not afraid for that, more for a LDC close to the hole in a kick's front head.

If you read the link to Klaus Heyne's forum you'll see that Neumann U47 fet's need a new capsule often when used for miking kick.

The new Rode K2 can have a SPL of 165 dbA tho.

 

[chessrock]

You're fine, as long as you stick a pop-filter on it . . . just like you would with a vocalist. Same basic idea. Protect the diaph. from the constant, relentless onslought of air bursts.

 

[CanopuS]

Coolio - Thanks for the replies. Anyhow, sorry to deviate off topic. I guess it depends what kind of sound you're going for (and your budget). Quite often people tend to go with a dedicated kick mic if they can afford it.

 

[meriphew]

Soundelux U195
Blue Mouse
Soundelux ifet7

 

[mrface2112]

i like using a dedicated kick mic inside the kick, and then another dynamic on the beater side of the kick (be sure to check phase). and THEN i like to stick an LDC (or an MDC, etc) in front of the kit, about 4 or 6ft out......depending on the sound i'm going for will determine the height. if i want more kick, i'll put it maybe a foot off the ground and aiming slightly up, sometimes i'll put it even with the snare drum, and sometimes on the same level as the rack toms.

between the two dynamics and the LDC out front, i usually get plenty of kick balls.


i guess i just favor a dynamic inside a kick rather than an LDC, although the shure beta 91 isn't a bad kick mic at all. :b


wade

 

[Giganova]

I don't belive that a sound wave creating air pressure can actually damage the diaphragm (unless you stick the mic behind a jet engine) -- its more likely just gonna clip .

 

[Han]

I don't belive that a sound wave creating air pressure can actually damage the diaphragm (unless you stick the mic behind a jet engine) -- its more likely just gonna clip .

Then click the link on my first post on this thread. Klause Heyne is a well respected mic specialist, see what his opinion is about kick miking with a LDC.

 

[Giganova]

well, I don't want to start a war here -- but I read the link you've posted:

The Jospehson engineer says "Diaphragm displacement even for very high SPL sounds is minimal. The significant amount of damping required to produce a usable mic assures that. Don't worry about it.". So the opinion of a pro who builds mics says "no".

Klaus Heyne quotes the Technical Director of Neumann as saying: "As long as a microphone is used within reasonable operating conditions*, there is absolutely no physical or scientific basis for a preposterous theory of the sound source affecting any microphone characteristics. * permanent damage may be caused by very grossly exceeding maximum SPL limits. "

From that I can't see how you justify that a high SPL can physically damage a mic. Maybe I am missing something here.

 

[Han]

No, we don't have to start any war, there's war enough on this planet already.

But this is what Klaus says and I tend to believe Klause rather than a manufacturer.

Quote: I love the subject!
I have been beaten over my head with my opinion about damage to LD condenser membranes from high SPL/pointed frequency sources for years. Anyone from Neumann on down poopoos my experience as unscientific and illogical.

I maintain to this day that something happens to a diaphragm when you assault it repeatedly, and over extended periods with a loud sound source of narrow frequency bandwidth.

What the nature of the damage is, I can only speculate: irreversible changes of the molecular structure of the polyester foil which permanently alter the compliance of the diaphragm and its response to certain frequencies?

The damage is so bad and obvious, that I have Fet47s from several L.A. studios on rotation, where at least once a year capsules are exchanged for new ones, because the engineers feel, and I concur, they are shot. But they love the sound of the fet 47 on kick so much that they are willing to sacrifice lots of money for capsules.

 

[formerlyfzfile]

Like Big kenny says

RE20 man.

Cant kill it and it will work great on lots of different stuff (bass cabs) as long as you have some juice in the pre ...... obviously not needed for kick.

You can even put one in your spandex and look way more impressive than that singer dude from Ratt.

-mike

 

[toorglick]

I used a SP B1 about a foot away from the front of the bass drum head, off to the side of the hole so the air wasn't blasting onto the diaphram. I really liked the sound and the B1 has survived it quite well.

Of course, in another recent thread here, I was mocked for doing this and essentially called ignorant for doing so. I'm surprised this thread has lasted this long without someone making fun of you for asking.

At any rate, over the past few weeks I've gone back to putting a dynamic into the hole. Earlier this evening I tried positioning it in a way so the mic is pointed more towards the shell than the beater head and liked that sound better. Definitely more punchy and defined. The SP B1 sounds more round and beefy with less punch.

So, my assessment is that you're probably no better off using a LD on the kick. FWIW, if you haven't already tried this and you're looking for a way to improve your kick sound I suggest playing with the beater head's tension. Less tension equals more flab, but a slightly flabby kick drum records great.

 

[chessrock]

I can't see how you justify that a high SPL can physically damage a mic. Maybe I am missing something here.

No, you're spot on. For the most part, high SPL's won't do much damage to a mic.

What we're talking about is the unnatural wear over time caused by constantly being subjected to the air blasts from a kick drum. Not the SPL. (That's why it's advisable to use a pop-filter) And no, even the air blasts don't flat-out wreck the mic -- but it can significantly shorten it's useful lifespan.

. . . Or so I've been told by at least 100 microphone geeks.

 

[musical5]

Hey,

If I like to close mic the inside head, from inside the drum, is there still a risk of blowing a LD? I would of course pad it.



Thanks

 

[Han]

Hey,

If I like to close mic the inside head, from inside the drum, is there still a risk of blowing a LD? I would of course pad it.



Thanks

Maybe, maybe not, but I would not take the risk. There are plenty dynamic mics that will give you an awesome kick sound. I get very good kick sound with an AKG D12 inside and a MD421 outside the kick.

If you blow a SP B1, well, no big deal, but an expensive LDC? Neumann says you can use an M149 for kick as long as you don't hit it with the beater, but I don't know.

Does anybody have experience with using LDC's for a long time on kick? Harvey? Fletcher?

 

[noisedude]

As I understand it, padding only reduces the outgoing signal ... it doesn't stop the fact that the membrane could be forced against the backplate of the capacitor and short the damn thing out.