Lack of headroom with new pc for recording - please help!

T

twangbuck

New member
Ok, so I just got a new i5-3470 quad core HP pc for recording. I was using an i3. Both have windows 7, although the i3 was 32 bit and the i5 is 64. I'm using Cubase LE with a zoom R8 as an interface. This setup sounded fine on my i3. Now however, on the i5 I have much less headroom when playing back through the Zoom. When any of the levels are even approaching 0 db it clips. I hooked up an old Focusrite interface I have however, and it's not clipping anywhere near as early. I reinstalled Cubase and the zoom driver and it didn't help. I've tried adjusting the levels in 'manage audio devices' in the control panel in windows 7 and it hasn't helped either.
Any thoughts? Is there a setting somewhere I'm missing?
 
Despite your having reinstalled the driver, I've got to think this is a driver issue with it not playing nicely at 64 bit. When you say you reinstalled it, did you go to the Zoom site and download the latest version?
 
How are you hooking up the interface? If you are using it as an interface, you should be using the ASIO drivers.

If the problem is with pre-recorded tracks, then those should be imported into your target DAW. Monitors should be going through the Zoom, not the PC. If you are playing through the Zoom, then the output control just needs to be reset.

If you are recording from the Zoom to your DAW, then you are not using it as intended. Probably the worse way to transfer your music from the Zoom to your computer.

If the above doesn't help, give us a little more information on what you are doing to cause the issue.
 
Bobbsy said:
Despite your having reinstalled the driver, I've got to think this is a driver issue with it not playing nicely at 64 bit. When you say you reinstalled it, did you go to the Zoom site and download the latest version?
Click to expand...

That's what I'm thinking too, but I reinstalled the driver twice, once with the latest version from Zoom's site and again with the driver that came with the R8 on the SD card. The issue was still a problem both ways. I may try contacting Zoom's support site. Not sure how successful I'll be.
 
DM60 said:
How are you hooking up the interface? If you are using it as an interface, you should be using the ASIO drivers.

If the problem is with pre-recorded tracks, then those should be imported into your target DAW. Monitors should be going through the Zoom, not the PC. If you are playing through the Zoom, then the output control just needs to be reset.

If you are recording from the Zoom to your DAW, then you are not using it as intended. Probably the worse way to transfer your music from the Zoom to your computer.

If the above doesn't help, give us a little more information on what you are doing to cause the issue.
Click to expand...

Hmmm.... now that I'm re-reading your post, I'll go back to see if I'm using the right driver. I'm pretty sure Zoom didnt' give an option for windows, in other words I think there was only one driver available for windows and one for mac, but I could be wrong on that. Let me check that out.
To answer your other questions, in Cubase I've selected the Zoom ASIO driver. I'm only using the zoom as an interface, so I'm plugging my guitar, vocal mic, etc into it, then going straight into the computer via the zoom's usb out and I'm recording on the computer. The problem is happening both with pre-recorded tracks as well as new tracks, and with a test mp3 I created from a test song I recorded yesterday with it. Monitors are going through the zoom. I'm hearing the break up both in my monitors and in my headset, which is also plugged into the zoom. Keep in mind, I'm not hearing the break up when using the focusrite as an interface, just the zoom.
My set up is pretty simple, so there's not much else to describe, except that I went through and adjusted all the record and playback levels in windows control panel and that had zero effect on anything.
The only thing I can think of that I haven't tried yet is the version of Cubase I'm using is LE 5. The driver that came with my zoom and that I downloaded from zoom are for the current version of LE, which I think is 6.
Could that be causing an issue? Again, I used 5 on my last pc and I'm pretty sure the driver was alos for 6 and I wasn't having a problem (though I could be wrong on that, it was a year ago that I installed it so they may have updated the driver).
I think I'll first check to make sure there isn't a separate windows driver that I missed, and then I'll try installing LE 6 to see if that solves the problem.

Thanks all! I'll try to post a follow up to let you know my progress.
 
It sounds like a driver issue to me, too, but I'm not sure Cubase LE5 is 64 bit compatible.

Then there is the whole 32bit/64bit plug-in bridge stuff you have to worry about. You might have some plug-ins that are 32bit and don't work on a 64bit computer. The Cubase bridge covers 90% of them, but not all. If the move to LE6 doesn't fix it for you, try J-Bridge or delete all your 32bit plugs.
 
twangbuck said:
Hmmm.... now that I'm re-reading your post, I'll go back to see if I'm using the right driver. I'm pretty sure Zoom didnt' give an option for windows, in other words I think there was only one driver available for windows and one for mac, but I could be wrong on that. Let me check that out.
Click to expand...

Windows will not use the ASIO driver, the DAW will use it. ASIO bypasses much (if not all) of the OS's drivers for performance. Probably written at the Assembler/C++ code level. I know this as I started in computers back in the late 80's for because of music and that is how one accessed the sound cards to gain control of them without interference from the OS. Assembler is about the lowest level programming language and is written at machine code level. Based on this (just thinking and haven't researched it), ASIO probably does the same thing as it doesn't want the OS to manage priorities and threading so performance reasons (read latency and CPU usage).

That stated, if you are listening to your interface in Windows (media players, games, etc.), you have to use Windows drivers (or those written for Windows using its API's) and that will be controlled from Window's API's. When you are in ASIO, that is controlled by the interfaces drivers and the DAW that supports the ASIO standard. Once again, bypassing the OS for improved control and performance.

Lot of words to simply say, Windows drivers for non-DAW listening, ASIO for DAW recording and listening.
 
Ok, I uninstalled cubase 5 and went with 6, and I also reinstalled the drivers. Same problem. I mean, it's not horrible, I can definitely use it for recording, mixing, etc. It's just I have to keep the levels down much further then I'm used to, and I'm not sure how I'm going to handle mastering yet.
I just find it odd that I get the clipping listening back through the zoom and not through the focusrite. Very odd. I may end up switching over to the focusrite when mastering.
I do have to say, it is very cool to listen to some of my tunes that could never play back on my i3 without dropping out, and now I can listen to them straight through on my i5 with no dropouts or hangups at all. That's pretty cool. I just have to get used to this lower headroom world.
 
I have downloaded the R8 manuals but cannot find a figure for line output.
The maximum input is stated at +4dBu and assuming a unity gain system, the output would be the same. This is well below the headroom of much even "semi-pro" gear so this distortion could just be an analogue electronics shortcoming?

Dave
 
it sounds like the zoom unit itself doesn't have enough headroom, it will have terrible quality AD/DA convertors and from what it sounds like a very low internal clipping point, the best analog gear has over 30dB of headroom. It isn't your PC that's for sure!
 
"the best analog gear has over 30dB of headroom"

Ooo! Not many Bee! For a +4dBu OP level that would be over 23volts rms.

I do however completely agree with your basic diagnosis, the Zoom just does not have the grunt.

Dave.
 
Btyre2013 said:
it sounds like the zoom unit itself doesn't have enough headroom, it will have terrible quality AD/DA convertors and from what it sounds like a very low internal clipping point, the best analog gear has over 30dB of headroom. It isn't your PC that's for sure!
Click to expand...

Ok, since I'm still pretty new to the recording world, and it sounds like the zoom may be the weak link in the chain, what are a few better interfaces for recording with a pc when utilizing a daw such as cubase? Anything in the $200-$300 range? How about somewhere between $300 and $500?
 
twangbuck said:
Ok, since I'm still pretty new to the recording world, and it sounds like the zoom may be the weak link in the chain, what are a few better interfaces for recording with a pc when utilizing a daw such as cubase? Anything in the $200-$300 range? How about somewhere between $300 and $500?
Click to expand...
Just to be clear the Zoom is handling digital data -not an analog feed from the DAW correct? And using it's own D/A for playback? This shouldn't be an analog head room issue.
 
Btyre2013 said:
Millennia HV-3C Specs

max output level = +32 dBu
Click to expand...

That's the OUTPUT level.

The maximum INPUT level is +23dBu and that's where the headroom applies.

The device mentioned is a pre-amp, i.e. an amplifier. Surely you don't argue that, just because a PA amp provides 50dB of gain that it has 50dB of headroom?

There are also some inconsistencies in that spec. For example, try rationalising the quoted maximum input of +23dBu maximum output of +32dBu and maximum gain of +60dB....

Now, can somebody explain to me why a mic pre amp needs a maximum input gain of +23dBu anyway? If your mic is putting out that sort of level (unlikely) surely you don't need a pre amp anyway?
 
Before we blame the Zoom for lack of headroom, let's be clear that this is a playback issue and that the OP says the same set up worked fine on his old computer and OS. This is why I suspect a driver issue--or at least something happening in the purely digital domain--rather than a problem in the Zoom. I think mixit got it right in his comment a few posts back.
 
Bobbsy said:
That's the OUTPUT level.

The maximum INPUT level is +23dBu and that's where the headroom applies.

The device mentioned is a pre-amp, i.e. an amplifier. Surely you don't argue that, just because a PA amp provides 50dB of gain that it has 50dB of headroom?

There are also some inconsistencies in that spec. For example, try rationalising the quoted maximum input of +23dBu maximum output of +32dBu and maximum gain of +60dB....

Now, can somebody explain to me why a mic pre amp needs a maximum input gain of +23dBu anyway? If your mic is putting out that sort of level (unlikely) surely you don't need a pre amp anyway?
Click to expand...

'Tis the way of some audio companies. If "headroom" is a good thing then MORE headroom must be better? If a response that is just 0.1dB down at 22kHz is good, one that is 0.1dB down at 200kHz MUST be better? (no!).

I agree that specc' is all over the shop Bobbs. "Noise -133dB" ? That is the self noise of a 150 Ohm resistor at 20C and 22kHz bandwidth....Ok! So that figure must be weighted in some way? If so they should bloody say so!

Pre amps generally feed converters. Does anyone know of one that needs/can be adjusted for 0dBFS for +32dBu in?

Not a bad price for a top range pre (even if they can't write a proper specc!) . Mind you, be £2000 over here and more than your car in Oz Bob!

Dave.
 
mixsit said:
Just to be clear the Zoom is handling digital data -not an analog feed from the DAW correct? And using it's own D/A for playback? This shouldn't be an analog head room issue.
Click to expand...

You're correct. The problem is occuring when I play audio back from my daw through the zoom. So I'm assuming the audio is digital. And again, the same zoom unit did not have this issue on my previous set up.
I am starting to make adjustments by keeping the levels lower, but it's still something that I wish I could diagnose.
 
miroslav said:
Just to name one. :)
Click to expand...

So do people tend to use preamps as interfaces, or are they using them usually prior to an interface? I guess this begs the larger question of what are guys typically using as interfaces in home studio set-ups, assuming they have around $300-$500 to spend? Are they using preamps, mixers, actual interfaces like the focusrites, multi channel recorders like the zoom? Or is it all over the map?
 
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