Keys

  • Thread starter Thread starter thebigcheese
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muttley600 said:
I wouldn't confuse with the issue of temperament for now, we all know where that will lead..;)

thebigcheese, As promised a simple diagram of the string divisions and their ratios. From it you can see how the ratios are arrived at and how they directly relate to what is going on with a vibrating string. All these vibrations are present in any vibrating string and regardless of it's length they occur at the same relative positions. Those between the 1:1 (fundemental) and 2:1 (octave) are the partials and 3:2 (the fifth) is harmonically the most well matched to the other equivalent vibrations in the root string or note.

Again this doesn't help you understand keys but it explains why the fifth is so important.
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This diagram definitely helps. I had started reasoning out the ratios in my head, but I was thinking that the ratio would be how many periods (I think that's the right word, or else we can just call them waves) on one side of the fret versus how many on the other. According to the diagram, though, it's the ratio of the total number of periods to the number of periods occurring after the fret, correct?
 
JR#97 said:
The circle of fifths is the answer. So kudos who posted the chart. The rest of you have to stay after class and peel gum off of the bottom of the desks.
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I understand the basics of how the circle works (you go up 5 or down 5, depending on the direction and that gets you the scale with one more accidental in it, or one less, depending on where you are), it's just that it doesn't really help me hear what key a song is in. It helps me understand how the scales are related to one another, I guess, but I don't really see any particular significance to that yet. Except for when my professor asks what key a song is in on my final. Then I can just count up or down from C and figure it out.
 
By the way, in case this wasn't implied... thanks to everyone who has posted so far. I've learned more so far than I have all semester in my useless classes.
 
thebigcheese said:
I understand the basics of how the circle works (you go up 5 or down 5, depending on the direction and that gets you the scale with one more accidental in it, or one less, depending on where you are)...
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Not to pick nits, but the sharps or flats in a particular key are not accidentals; accidentals are notes in a score that are marked sharp, flat, or natural because they don't conform to the key signature, i.e., a flat 7 in a major key.
 
ggunn said:
Not to pick nits, but the sharps or flats in a particular key are not accidentals; accidentals are notes in a score that are marked sharp, flat, or natural because they don't conform to the key signature, i.e., a flat 7 in a major key.
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Thank you. I wasn't sure about that when I wrote it and figured I probably wasn't saying it right. It just seemed like there ought to be an easier way to say "sharp or flat". Now that I think about it, that's about the same number of letters anyway... You win.
 
For those of you who have read Fretboard Logic, I have a question. He says that there are five fundamentally different chord forms possible as a result of the guitar's tuning: C, A, G, E, and D. What about B and F forms? Or am I just getting hung up on the naming here? It sounds like what he might be saying is that there are five forms (which have nothing to do with the ABCDEFG note sequence) and he just names them in accordance with what chord they happen to make at the open position. Is that correct?
 
thebigcheese said:
For those of you who have read Fretboard Logic, I have a question. He says that there are five fundamentally different chord forms possible as a result of the guitar's tuning: C, A, G, E, and D. What about B and F forms? Or am I just getting hung up on the naming here? It sounds like what he might be saying is that there are five forms (which have nothing to do with the ABCDEFG note sequence) and he just names them in accordance with what chord they happen to make at the open position. Is that correct?
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The "forms" he's talking about are based on open chord forms. All barre chords are based on one of those five open chord forms.

For example, an F barre chord is the "E Form." Notice how it looks exactly like the E chord, only one fret higher.

The B chord form is an "A Form." It looks just like the A chord, only two frets higher.


To understand this, try fingering your open chords without using your first finger. Lay your first finger behind the nut, as if it were barring. Then use your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th fingers to finger the chords. The result with be the barre chord forms.

For example, finger an E major chord with 2, 3, and 4 and lay your first finger behind the nut as a barre. Look familiar? This is your typical "E form" barre chord shape. Slide this anywhere on the neck, and you have different barre chords, including F at the first fret.

The open A chord can be played by barring your 3rd finger across fret 2 and laying your first finger behind the nut on the 5th string. Slide this shape up the neck and you have that barre chord shape, including the B chord at the 2nd fret.
 
I mean, I get that they are movable forms and all, I'm just wondering why there isn't a B form or an F form. Is it because there aren't open positions for either of those? I guess I understand that there are 5 forms (shapes), I'm just not sure why there aren't 7 if all the forms are based on one of the 7 notes/chords.
 
thebigcheese said:
I mean, I get that they are movable forms and all, I'm just wondering why there isn't a B form or an F form. Is it because there aren't open positions for either of those? I guess I understand that there are 5 forms (shapes), I'm just not sure why there aren't 7 if all the forms are based on one of the 7 notes/chords.
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Yes it's because they're not based on open chord forms.

In other words, the B chord is just an A form barre chord.

And the F chord is just an E-form barre chord.


All the chords aren't based on the seven notes. They're based on the open chord forms on the guitar: C, A, G, E, D. Every other chord, whether it's Db, F#, Ab, whatever, that's played on the guitar as a barre chord will be using one of those 5 basic barre chord forms, just like B and F are.


Here's the thing. The C, A, G, E, and D chords are all unique looking, right? B isn't unique looking. It's just a fretted version of A. F isn't unique either. It's just a fretted version of E.
 
Right. Ok, that makes sense. Now I understand and can move on :)
 
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