Keys

[mshilarious]

I got into a debate with our (classically trained) keyboard player over what key a song was in the other night. Basically the chords were A, G, and D. He said that it was obviously in D because those chords are the V, IV, and I of D. I said it was in A because, well, just listen to it.

It seems your keyboardist was too obtuse to realize a great number of rock songs are in the mixolydian mode

My new insult (intended to take the place of any other epithet you have been using): "Dude, that is soooo keyboard"

 

[james of unity]

maybe this is/isn't helpful. when teaching music, i always teach the circle of 5ths. if you know which sharps/flats are in the piece your playing, this will work.

 

[james of unity]

which will be here \/ \/ \/

 

[james of unity]

 

[famous beagle]

I got into a debate with our (classically trained) keyboard player over what key a song was in the other night. Basically the chords were A, G, and D. He said that it was obviously in D because those chords are the V, IV, and I of D. I said it was in A because, well, just listen to it.

The bottom line? It didn't matter. It didn't change a single note either of us were playing. Don't play notes in the Key Of Whatever just because the song is (maybe) in that key, play notes that work in the context of the song.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Your KB player is taking the strict diatonic approach, which is ignoring your most important asset in music: your ears.

Theoretically speaking, if the song were in the key of A as you said (and I'm inclined to agree with you because you mentioned the magic word ... "listen"), the G is simply a borrowed chord. It's a bVII chord.

As I said, borrowed chords are extremely common.

It's the same concept as a song with the chords A, C, and D. Those three chords aren't diatonic to any one key, so your KB player's system won't work at all. But the C chord can simply be explained as a borrowed bIII chord in the key of A. The C is borrowed from the parallel A minor mode. Just as the G is borrowed from the parallel A minor mode in your original example.

Actually, the I bVII IV progression is so common now, it hardly even needs to be described as modal mixture, although that is the technical term for it. You can hear that progression in everything from the old Juicy Fruit commercial ("Juicy Fruit, it's gonna move ya...") to "Can't You See" by the Marshall Tucker Band to "I Can't Explain" by the Who to "Sweet Home Alabama." (Those songs aren't all in the key of A, but they all use the I bVII IV progression.)

So you can tell your KB player that you were right, and you have the proof!

 

[thebigcheese]

Holy cow, that's a way fancier circle than we talked about in class. We only used it to see how major scales relate to each other... annnnnd print. I'm not going to pretend to understand all of what's on it, though...

 

[ggunn]

You can hear that progression in everything from the old Juicy Fruit commercial ("Juicy Fruit, it's gonna move ya...") to "Can't You See" by the Marshall Tucker Band to "I Can't Explain" by the Who to "Sweet Home Alabama."

Your examples give you away. 'Fess up, you're an old fart like me, aren't ya'? ;^)

 

[famous beagle]

Your examples give you away. 'Fess up, you're an old fart like me, aren't ya'? ;^)

I ain't that old! In fact, my wife and I are expecting our first child now. (Though I did get a later start on the fatherhood thang than most people.)

I just realize that there was a lot of good music before my time, so I'm familiar with a good deal of 60s and 70s stuff. (And quite a bit of 50s stuff too!)

 

[famous beagle]

Holy cow, that's a way fancier circle than we talked about in class. We only used it to see how major scales relate to each other... annnnnd print. I'm not going to pretend to understand all of what's on it, though...

Don't be too worried about that. Those are just relative minors on the very inside---a concept that you'll soon come to understand with ease I'm sure. And the other thing is just the spelling of the tonic triad in each key (the "I chord").

 

[Gear_Junky]

Would the rest of the Fretboard Logic series be a good place to start?

IMHO, Volume II would be!

This is the kind of book that may not "jump out at you", it takes time to sink in, but all excellent stuff. You only realize how well he'd put things when you begin using it.

For me it simplified the memorization process of the notes on the fretboard and chord shapes. It is also currently my only "go to" chord book (Volume 2).

To give you an example: I've wanted to play better leads/improv for years. I wanted to break out of the predictable boxes and phrases. I would always ask "how do you learn to phrase better".

Also, for more background: I've been consistently ONLY learning scales and notes in Cmaj/Amin (no sharps/flats) - I just figured I'd get all the patterns committed to memory and then begin practicing other common keys. So rarely ever do I practice G/Em or A/F#m positions. But when I'm thrown in a situation where I have to play in other keys and SOLELY because I've been reading and re-reading the FL book I find I can somewhat easily find needed positions and especially the "Lead Patterns" (which connect a few boxes).

Also, while I still don't understand how I should "phrase better", I find that I just do - I've been listening to myself lately and enjoying my progress.

Just imagine if I actually practiced all the other keys

unlike some "online method" the books are fairly cheap and they're a kind of Pimsleur/rosetta stone for the musical language (of guitar). They made me see how dumb many other books were (and even some teachers, yes!).

 

[muttley600]

I know I need to start with the basics, I guess I just wasn't really sure where to begin. I took three years of guitar lessons and we had only started going through the Fretboard Logic book (the first one). The book is ok, but I'm the sort of person that always needs to know what the point of learning something is, and that book never really told me why I should be listening to him. I see now why theory is helpful, but I think I always just assumed that I should just be able to figure something out without it. It's disheartening to sit in my intro-level classes and not be able to keep up when I've been playing music my whole life...

I still don't really understand much of what you guys are saying because you're using a lot of fancy words that have no meaning to me, so maybe you could just suggest a starting point for me. I see what you're saying about learning scales and intervals, but I don't really know how much there is to learn about that, so I don't know what to look for. I mean, I know that a scale consists of 7 notes, and the pattern of a major scale is WWHWWWH, and that an interval is the distance between notes... but what else is there to know about them? I feel like I might as well never have played an instrument before with the level of knowledge I'm at...

I'll have a hunt about and see if I can find some simple explanations of the "must" know concepts. The thing about it all is, like much of the theory in many of the things discussed here, a good grasp of the basics is all that is needed to start you off on the learning curve. That curve is often steep to start with but once you get going I'm sure you'll be able to get a handle on the stuff that follows. That applies equally to acoustics, tunings and temperaments, any of those things that can leave you cold and make you feel excluded.

Don't worry too much about keeping up, worry about learning the bits you need to do what you want to do. At the moment I would guess you need a fairly clear explanation of the basics of harmony. That should be fairly straight forward. I know from my own experience that even when I had that I needed a good few years playing in pickup jazz bands and the like to be able to fully understand it but knowing about it made the process possible.

I'll try and hunt out some well laid out explanations of the basics, you don't need a fancy diagram of the circle of fifths, you don't need to know about modes, you don't need to know about, I IV, V chord progressions, Not yet. You need to know why a scale is made up as it is and what makes it special. From there you can understand that the do re mi thing is just labels we give them so is A, B, C..

Most of all it needs to be fun, then when you move onto those concepts and how they apply you will relish the challenge. In the meantime, vacate your mind of A, B, C, D, etc and all that goes with it. Start with a clear head and remember in the end it's just about moving air. Do you have a keybord at your disposal?

 

[cnix]

And if all else fails, learn 4 cords and buy a capo.

 

[thebigcheese]

Do you have a keyboard at your disposal?

(Fixed your spelling for you) Yes, I do. Not a particularly good one, but I have one. Thanks for the help so far, guys.

 

[thebigcheese]

Oh, and as I side note, muttley, you were talking about how it needs to be fun and I think that's part of the problem right now. Guitar just isn't as fun anymore because I feel like I've lost all my creative juices. I think part of that is just that I never know where to go with a song. For instance, I have a ton of riffs written, but they've never gone past the riff stage because I just don't know what to do with them. I think part of that is just that I don't really understand all this theory stuff.

Also, no one's been teaching me theory in a way that is fun. It's all just confusing instead...

 

[famous beagle]

Oh, and as I side note, muttley, you were talking about how it needs to be fun and I think that's part of the problem right now. Guitar just isn't as fun anymore because I feel like I've lost all my creative juices. I think part of that is just that I never know where to go with a song. For instance, I have a ton of riffs written, but they've never gone past the riff stage because I just don't know what to do with them. I think part of that is just that I don't really understand all this theory stuff.

Also, no one's been teaching me theory in a way that is fun. It's all just confusing instead...

Learn songs from those you like. That'll help you start to see how harmony works. Even if you won't know the names of things, you'll develop a sense and ear for it. That's the most important thing.

Lots of great writers didn't know theory. The Beatles for one. Kurt Cobain ... there are lots.

 

[muttley600]

Oh, and as I side note, muttley, you were talking about how it needs to be fun and I think that's part of the problem right now. Guitar just isn't as fun anymore because I feel like I've lost all my creative juices. I think part of that is just that I never know where to go with a song. For instance, I have a ton of riffs written, but they've never gone past the riff stage because I just don't know what to do with them. I think part of that is just that I don't really understand all this theory stuff.

Also, no one's been teaching me theory in a way that is fun. It's all just confusing instead...

A good reason to come at it from the perspective of another instrument. Music theory on the piano is SO much easier that on the guitar.

The spelling thing, well hey I never could spell but I like to think I can write coherently. In a way music theory is the same, you don't have to have it all under your fingers to express yourself.. Set yourself some achievable targets, break it down and tackle it a bit at a time.


More later...You can do this.

 

[dave_major]

Look 2 posts from the bottom on the first page. That is the circle of fifths and it is your friend (or your enemy depending on how quickly you pick it up).
I have a big print out of that picture on my wall above my piano so i don't really have to remember them all of the top of my head.

Like the original poster i am a drummer but play guitar and piano (both to an ok standard) so i havent been brought up on this stuff.

The best way to get a feel for the key is to learn the major scales in those keys and as someone said concentrate on the 'do' of do-re-me etc etc.

Plus a little bit of study goes along way

Cheers

Dave

 

[muttley600]

Here you go.

Music Theory for Songwriters

If this kind of makes some sense to you then you'll understand what I was going on about. The rest is just pushing these concepts further, giving them more defined titles, explanations etc.. Work on grasping what is explained in the link and take it at an easy pace, don't saturate yourself. Get up and have a coffee think about bits come back fresh. If the first half of these tutorials make sense to you you nhave the concept of "key" under your belt, because it's not the key that is important but what lies within.

If I'm way wide of the mark just say and I'll try and find something more appropriate.

A good book on the subject is the the ubiquitous "music theory for dummies". I know those books are lame but they do explain things well. I should think you'd get it in your local library give it a browse there before you buy it.

 

[Henry Mars]

There is really no substitute for learning music theory. It opens the musical world to a player.
I know a lot of guitar players that don't have a clue about theory let alone how to read music and they wear it like a badge of honor.
I know this is going to be a letdown for some people, but in the studio they will hand you real music not tabs.
When I started playing professionally in1963 it was just assumed that a guitar player couldn't read music and didn't understand music theory or construction. These days if you really want to earn a living as a working guitarist you must know these things, the alternative is to spend the rest of your life playing covers in some bar for $50 a night unless you get really lucky. The competition is just too strong. The world is full of 3 chord wonders playing blues and pentonic scales.
In 1963 a good guitarist was one that could actually play a tune with 4 chords in more than one key. If some crazy canary wanted to sing You Belong To Me in Db .... Oh well you get my point. Rant over.

 

[thebigcheese]

Here you go.

Music Theory for Songwriters

If this kind of makes some sense to you then you'll understand what I was going on about. The rest is just pushing these concepts further, giving them more defined titles, explanations etc.. Work on grasping what is explained in the link and take it at an easy pace, don't saturate yourself. Get up and have a coffee think about bits come back fresh. If the first half of these tutorials make sense to you you nhave the concept of "key" under your belt, because it's not the key that is important but what lies within.

If I'm way wide of the mark just say and I'll try and find something more appropriate.

A good book on the subject is the the ubiquitous "music theory for dummies". I know those books are lame but they do explain things well. I should think you'd get it in your local library give it a browse there before you buy it.

It's sort of helpful so far (the web site), but I guess every time you read an intro to someone explaining theory they talk about how learning theory will have you suddenly realize, oh, I can "put a 12-bar blues progression together and build a really good song out of it" (to quote the dummies book). I'm not getting any of these lightbulbs everyone keeps talking about. The more I read about theory, the more confused I get, so I always just end up giving up. For instance, in the web site, he jumps right in with chords. Obviously, I know the basic chords on a guitar, but for me it was like, whoa there buddy, back up. How did we even get to this point? Part of my learning process is that I always need to know why, and I don't feel like anything I've read so far is really giving me the why, it's just rattling off a list of things that just are. I thought the idea behind theory was to understand the why so that you can actually do something with all this information, but I'm not getting that. It's like someone is reading out of a history book and forcing me to memorize all these meaningless facts. I'm trying to just go through the web site, hoping that eventually he will actually say something that will explain something he already said, but he just throws more and more information at me that triggers a massive overload and makes my brain shut down. Maybe I should just stick with drums...