Just curious as to why still analog??

[evm1024]

When did Tim (Beck) say this ? See, statements or even assumptions like this, based really on nothing, discredit a member (Beck) who is one of the most coherent here.



I think we have a case of looking at the same thing and seeing two different things. It is obvious that yourself and even regebro have your own "schema" or mental structure that represents an aspect of the world not everyone here shares. Doesn't mean that one is right and one is wrong tho. However, you both come off as thinking you know more than anyone here. Your superiority complex is so evident it hurts. This is not meant as an insult just an observation. I think it is you who doesn't get the point and never will ..

~Daniel

I can second that. Very good post with all the usual suspects.

Regards

 

[cjacek]

If you want to really get into it, seemingly you do, I got you one up is analog snobbery and I think that any analog machine that is NOT a 2" pro machine is a toy and was designed and marketed towards pseudo-engineers. I happen to have a real analog 2" MCI JH24-24 that I record on all the time. There are so many gold and platinum records done on this machine the list would make you dizzy.

Woopdy freakin' doo! Unfortunately most of us play with "toys" like the TEAC/TASCAM SEMI-pro gear so best we "pseudo-engineers" shut up, eh ? Cool.

 

[DamnYankee]

Is it a price issue, or nostalgia, or just because you have been recording and mixing that way for ever and reluctant to change?

Do you see yourself going all digital in the future?

I'm just curious at to the mindset of an analog fan.

Here's the deal:

1. Analog produces a continuous stream of signals to the eyes and ears in the form of even-order harmonics. Digital produces DISCONTINUOUS stream of information in the form of odd-order harmonics (due to processing the 0's & 1's). Human beings are naturally built to process in even-order harmonic, analog form. In the digital world, the goal is to keep upping the bit rate in an attempt to fool the eyes and ears with faster the processing of 0's & 1's. That's the biological part of the answer.

2. When any signal is digitized, the phase angle relationship between the high frequencies and the lows frequencies are destroyed; this creates phase angle distortion. Your ears use analog phase angle relationships to determine where and how far a sound is from where you're standing. When music is digitized, the spatial characteristics are destroyed. This is one of two reasons why digital sounds "cold", and analog sounds "warm".

3. Frequencies also play a role - analog is continuous up and down the human ear range of 20hz to 20k hz. Digital signals (even at 24 bit rates) cannot come even close to processing all frequencies in a smooth, linear fashion as analog. In digitized music, the highs of a cymbal crash are chopped off, leaving a brassy sounding cymbal, and the bass is chopped off (which is why subwoofers were created), and the mids are the focal point. That's the Laws of Physics part of the answer.

4. When recording in analog, you get 3 free goodies that can't be emulated in digital: phase cancellation when doubling (eg guitar parts), natural audio compression and natural tape saturation.

In short, it's physically impossible for digital to ever emulate analog because the Laws of Nature will never allow it. It doesn't matter if the bit rate jumps from 24 to 2 million, the phase angle relationship will always be destroyed - which destroys the very spatial characteristics you are trying to create in your music.

But, digital is cheap and these companies have done a superb marketing campaign on the public that digital is superior over analog. It's absolutely hysterical that John Q Public gobbles it up.

Wanna hear another scream? It's the digital chorus effect. Ever hear of a decent digital chorus? You won't. It's physically impossible to create a good sounding digital chorus because of the phase angle destruction in the echo. The company marketing these products are laughing all the way to the bank.

Digital is great for performing calculations and many other tasks, but digital for video and audio? Your ears, eyes, and brain are analog based, and your eyes and ears can detect the difference between analog and digital. In fact, your ears can hear sounds that analog equipment can't detect yet. If you think digital gear is going to pick those sounds up that analog can't, then I have an awesome sounding digital chorus to sell ya...

Class dismissed.

DY

 

[Beck]

Amen... and a few closing words from Tom Scholz on this very subject:

"The instant you digitize a signal, you destroy the phase-angle relationship between the high frequencies and the lows. That’s why you can’t make a decent chorus with a digital delay unit. Phase-angle distortion has been with us since the day 3M introduced their incredibly expensive, 15kHz digital-recording deck. I still remember the famous quote from their marketing department: “There is an introduction of phase-angle distortion, but the human ear can’t hear it.”

"I find that so hysterical because the human ear can hear things we can’t measure yet. And the ear does use phase-angle information to determine the location sounds originate from, and the space within which you’re standing when you hear those sounds. Simply put, that’s what tells you, “Oh, that sound came from over there.” The end result is that digitized music destroys the spatial characteristics of the music...."

... The two advantages of digital are that it’s cheap, and it gives you lots of features. As far as sound quality goes, digital is always worse."

--Tom Scholz, - Guitar Player Magazine, May 2003

 

[DamnYankee]

Hey! That's what I said...in a long winded version. Now I understand the cost difference between my 5 figure education at the University of Toledo and his 6 figure education at MIT: the extra tuition at MIT teaches one to talk more succinctly!

*heh heh heh*

Amen... and a few closing words from Tom Scholz on this very subject:

"The instant you digitize a signal, you destroy the phase-angle relationship between the high frequencies and the lows. That’s why you can’t make a decent chorus with a digital delay unit. Phase-angle distortion has been with us since the day 3M introduced their incredibly expensive, 15kHz digital-recording deck. I still remember the famous quote from their marketing department: “There is an introduction of phase-angle distortion, but the human ear can’t hear it.”

"I find that so hysterical because the human ear can hear things we can’t measure yet. And the ear does use phase-angle information to determine the location sounds originate from, and the space within which you’re standing when you hear those sounds. Simply put, that’s what tells you, “Oh, that sound came from over there.” The end result is that digitized music destroys the spatial characteristics of the music...."

... The two advantages of digital are that it’s cheap, and it gives you lots of features. As far as sound quality goes, digital is always worse."

--Tom Scholz, - Guitar Player Magazine, May 2003

 

[Dr ZEE]

I had an MX8000 for 6 years. It basically was a reliable board with good routing options, but the sound was pretty harsh and the EQ does very close to nothing but add distortion.

AHHHA!!!! There you go. Now we speaking

So, see!, You actually DID pay attention when you saw Rats running all overthe Captain's Deck instead of just shooting them dead. So you do trust the nature when it comes to YOUR ear (your life, your ship), instead of simply follow what's on paper. And you have no problem with discarding what's ON PAPER, remember?: "....the quietest and most transparent 8-bus console in the industry... Eurodesk MX-8000... is the only one in its class using 4580 operational amplifiers which provide 30% quieter performance overall.... yada yada ..blah blah etc"

So you've took the rats seriously. Whether you have done it instinctively or by following Behringer's own slogan ("Your Ear Is Our Judge"), but you've turned the ship back home, saved the crew, got rid of the bad boat, but I'd guess, you have decided to keep the rats... just in case.

I wonder, if while working with MX-8000 during those six long years of struggle in your mind you have asked yourself: "Hmmmmm. Sh*t. Something IS MISSING here.....?".... And then, maybe, the 'other voice' in your head (much clearer and stronger voice) would say: "Nothing is missing here. It's all in your twisted head. Read the specifications. It is all perfect. Get over it.".... then the first voce say: "Shut up!, You tech-freak.... And leave me alone! Leave NOW! I know what hear, damn IT!!!!""" heh heh

So you've got rid of mx-8000. GOOD GO!

So now you can go out and trash Behringer's mixers to the right and to the left with no second thoughts and no fear of potential regrets at all. And that's totally cool with me. What is not cool, man, is that when you see somebody else does the the same thing in respect to something what you may think is Top-Of-The-Line for what ever reason, then you show no respect to that persn's personal rat-running-experience and Strongly Direct this person to a HIGHER SOURCE (go to school, read manuals, study basics, check specifications, listen to "Real Pros" etc...)

Is it just your attitude? Noooooooooooo, that can't be, man.... You must of having some stronger base.

anyways...

********

Did I call you retarded?

Nop. I just happened to be in the bar-room, when you walked in, took a seat near your buddy, who happened to be involved in some hotargument with other dudes. Then you've ordered your beer, friendly slapped your Boddy's shoulder and said to him: "Hey, man, take it easy, this room is full of retards. Com'on, be gentle on 'em...."

arghhhhhhhh. This all really means nothing. You could get rid of your superior attitude if you wish. What for? hmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't really know. You don't have to. But such attitude does not do any good... again if you care at all.

 

[cjacek]

Source: http://www.atrmagnetics.com/

 

[regebro]

However, you both come off as thinking you know more than anyone here.

Well, I do know more than most of the people in this thread. Thats not a superiority complex, thats a fact. As an electronical (both digital and analog) engineer with an interest in sound, I have been studuying this on my free for twenty years now. SOME snippets of information and insight has stayed with me you know.

 

[regebro]

Digital produces DISCONTINUOUS stream of information in the form of odd-order harmonics (due to processing the 0's & 1's). Human beings are naturally built to process in even-order harmonic, analog form.

This is completely und utterly false, from start to finish.

When any signal is digitized, the phase angle relationship between the high frequencies and the lows frequencies are destroyed; this creates phase angle distortion.

This is new. Never heard that before. Can you elaborate?

3. Frequencies also play a role - analog is continuous up and down the human ear range of 20hz to 20k hz. Digital signals (even at 24 bit rates) cannot come even close to processing all frequencies in a smooth, linear fashion as analog.

Complete and utter bullshit.

In digitized music, the highs of a cymbal crash are chopped off, leaving a brassy sounding cymbal, and the bass is chopped off (which is why subwoofers were created), and the mids are the focal point. That's the Laws of Physics part of the answer.

Except of course, these highs are usually more chopped off in analog...

4. When recording in analog, you get 3 free goodies that can't be emulated in digital: phase cancellation when doubling (eg guitar parts),

why wouldn't you get that in digital? that's a very weird statement.

natural audio compression and natural tape saturation.

True (but only for tape, so it's not an analog vs digital discussion, but analog tape vs everything else, really).

 

[arjoll]

I think we have a case of looking at the same thing and seeing two different things. It is obvious that yourself and even regebro have your own "schema" or mental structure that represents an aspect of the world not everyone here shares. Doesn't mean that one is right and one is wrong tho. However, you both come off as thinking you know more than anyone here. Your superiority complex is so evident it hurts. This is not meant as an insult just an observation. I think it is you who doesn't get the point and never will.

After vowing not to post in this thread again, I find myself strangely drawn....

At the risk of offending people (and its not my intention) and after skipping over most of the posts made between last week and today I'd like to make the following observations.

Basically it seems that everyone has the same 'big picture' view that analogue can sound pleasing and smooth out aspects of a recording nicely. Regebro and Acorec are not digital-heads; Regebro's website has details of maintaining a Fostex recorder (BTW nice apartment), Acorec loves recording on his 2" MCI and mixing on an analogue mixer.

Where the disagreement seems to have come in is in the nitty-gritty details of digital - is it 'accurate' or just 'harsh'?

After searching I'd have to say that I probably straddle the fence. I don't have the same degree of recording experience as Regebro, Acorec, Beck or Cjacek, but I found the drum sound recorded on an MSR16 to be great.

On the other side of things I recorded a classical concert that my wife (classically trained vocalist and LTCL) did with clarinet and piano accompaniment. I recorded this with two 414's plugged into a Tascam US-122 recording at 16/44.1. Burning this directly to CD and playing on my modest home system (Marantz CD4000, Denon PMA360 and Infinity Reference 20's - all entry level stuff), sitting in the sweet spot it was honestly like being there. The 414's picked up the natural reverb of the old Church the concert was held in beautifully. And it was all digital.

I was going to make an observation based on cultures, but after re-reading what I'd written I don't think its appropriate. What I think is that there is a basic misunderstanding - not intentional - of what everyone seems to be saying.

Here's more stuff to dig me into a hole:
1. I don't believe that a cassette based system would sound as good as a high end digital system.
2. I don't believe that the sound of the US122 would come close to the same sound if I'd used two tracks of Acorec's 2" MCI (but I'd love to do some comparisons, just courier it over with some fresh tape ).

And finally, we all must remember that I am a qualified Chartered Accountant . So while the electrical engineers, musicians and sound engineers can offer valid opinions on all the tech stuff, I must say that if I had NZ$10,000 in 1993 I would have initially been tempted by a DA88, but would have probably ended up buying an MSR16. $625 per track instead of $1,250; a compelling difference

So that's it. Flame me if you want (some good info on Regebro's site), but you all know I'm so damn right its scarey.

 

[regebro]

Regebro and Acorec are not digital-heads;

I'm happy somebody realized it at least.

 

[Dr ZEE]

... we all must remember that I am a qualified Chartered Accountant . ....

jokin' ahead....

WOW! Then you are well qualified to hang out with the whole load of well respected faces. So, who do you hang out with, man? c'mon ... heh heh , why not to "add some extra weight" to what ever you may wish to say .... .
Who ever you may hang out with would be fine with me, well as long as the guys you hang out with are not George or Brad. I'm not sure, why... but there's something about these two guys that I get allergic reaction to.... and a real bad one! ... heh heh I guess, it must be , maybe, in the way both of them would pass the mirror in the hotel hall... you know, slowing down a bit, you know.... turning slighly left/right .... well, you know.

*******

 

[Beck]

but you all know I'm so damn right its scarey.

It is scarey.

 

[Beck]

Source: http://www.atrmagnetics.com/

COOL!!!

 

[Seeker of Rock]

Source: http://www.atrmagnetics.com/

I want one of those bumper stickers/magnets!!

 

[acorec]

AHHHA!!!! There you go. Now we speaking

So, see!, You actually DID pay attention when you saw Rats running all overthe Captain's Deck instead of just shooting them dead. So you do trust the nature when it comes to YOUR ear (your life, your ship), instead of simply follow what's on paper. And you have no problem with discarding what's ON PAPER, remember?: "....the quietest and most transparent 8-bus console in the industry... Eurodesk MX-8000... is the only one in its class using 4580 operational amplifiers which provide 30% quieter performance overall.... yada yada ..blah blah etc"

So you've took the rats seriously. Whether you have done it instinctively or by following Behringer's own slogan ("Your Ear Is Our Judge"), but you've turned the ship back home, saved the crew, got rid of the bad boat, but I'd guess, you have decided to keep the rats... just in case.

I wonder, if while working with MX-8000 during those six long years of struggle in your mind you have asked yourself: "Hmmmmm. Sh*t. Something IS MISSING here.....?".... And then, maybe, the 'other voice' in your head (much clearer and stronger voice) would say: "Nothing is missing here. It's all in your twisted head. Read the specifications. It is all perfect. Get over it.".... then the first voce say: "Shut up!, You tech-freak.... And leave me alone! Leave NOW! I know what hear, damn IT!!!!""" heh heh

So you've got rid of mx-8000. GOOD GO!

So now you can go out and trash Behringer's mixers to the right and to the left with no second thoughts and no fear of potential regrets at all. And that's totally cool with me. What is not cool, man, is that when you see somebody else does the the same thing in respect to something what you may think is Top-Of-The-Line for what ever reason, then you show no respect to that persn's personal rat-running-experience and Strongly Direct this person to a HIGHER SOURCE (go to school, read manuals, study basics, check specifications, listen to "Real Pros" etc...)

Is it just your attitude? Noooooooooooo, that can't be, man.... You must of having some stronger base.

anyways...

********


Nop. I just happened to be in the bar-room, when you walked in, took a seat near your buddy, who happened to be involved in some hotargument with other dudes. Then you've ordered your beer, friendly slapped your Boddy's shoulder and said to him: "Hey, man, take it easy, this room is full of retards. Com'on, be gentle on 'em...."

arghhhhhhhh. This all really means nothing. You could get rid of your superior attitude if you wish. What for? hmmmmmmmmmmm. I don't really know. You don't have to. But such attitude does not do any good... again if you care at all.

What in the world are you talking about? You rample on meaninglessly in all of your posts. Are you from another country or what?

YOU are the one with a superior attitude. That IS how we got here. You really should *comprehend* what I said in many of the posts and not just scan for things you take offense to.

 

[Beck]

Dr ZEE is a cool cat who speaks in parables with his own unique adornment of our rather drab English language. I read Dr ZEE’s poetic convolutions as works of art, but I’m an artist first and an engineer second. They are unusually intricate, but often show depth and insight beyond what many are accustomed to in a technical dialog.

 

[regebro]

Or, by being suitably fuzzy, he forces you to interpret everything he say and fill in the blanks. So the insight you find are what you find in the infilled blanks. It's YOUR insight, not Dr ZEEs.

 

[evm1024]

And it is a tests your intentions

Dr ZEE is a cool cat who speaks in parables with his own unique adornment of our rather drab English language. I read Dr ZEE’s poetic convolutions as works of art, but I’m an artist first and an engineer second. They are unusually intricate, but often show depth and insight beyond what many are accustomed to in a technical dialog.

Plus, It is a test of your intentions. If you dismiss his writings off hand and don't put any effort into understanding you will miss what he is saying.

This tells us that you are not interested in hearing what others have to say and learning from it where you can but rather your interest is in telling others what and how it is....

Regards

 

[Beck]

Or, by being suitably fuzzy, he forces you to interpret everything he say and fill in the blanks. So the insight you find are what you find in the infilled blanks. It's YOUR insight, not Dr ZEEs.

Good show, regebro! Interpretation is a part of all our communications; even with those we think we understand perfectly and effortlessly. It’s a judgment call for each to make. Dr. ZEE isn’t fuzzy to me and he’s been very consistent.

When I think of someone being suitably fuzzy they are usually saying something like, “Don’t you get it?” or “If you don’t know I’m not going to tell you.” People say stuff like that to talk down to others and make one think they are missing something obvious. It’s a social intimidation tactic when the force of an argument alone is weak.

I’ve never seen Dr. ZEE do things like that so I don’t see his way of speaking as a “tactic.”