JoeyM / PoeticIntensity Collab - Out Of The Rain

TripleM

Well-known member
The tricky stuff moving around the stereo field at the very beginning was cool.

I liked the drums. Maybe cut just a bit out of the snare at around 1K or so? It has a hint of hollowness to it - just a hint. Love the reverb on it. Cymbals are very clear.

Guitars sound real good. Bass sounds good too - it could maybe come a db or two.

Vocals have a nice clear sound. To me they're just a bit too wet.

Something happens at 3:51. Right after the words "fall down". Some little click or something. Is it on the vocal track? Not sure.
 

joeym

New member
Hmm... I've always done it the other way. I always put my guitars 'n' stuff to the click, then put drums down to the click / guitars, then vocals. Maybe I'll try it the other way and see if it gels more. Or maybe I'm just overflowing with awesomeness. :D Nah... I just don't care that much about perfect timing, I guess.

Your timing is perfect.....and I love your flowing style.
 

rayc

retroreprobate
I've learned a HEAP just reading the dialogue between Greg, Joe & PI.
So much so that next time I have a song idea I'll get in early, lay down 1 guitar & bass to a click & then beg Greg or Gerry or Joe, or RAMI of kc etc to play on it.
Usually I do heaps of tracking in an effort to convince folk that the song's worth their effort based on the work already put in.
If the song REALLY is worth the effort it should be evident with a guide of chord sequence, a guide melody (but not from me so probably a lyric sheet), and a click.
 

joeym

New member
I've learned a HEAP just reading the dialogue between Greg, Joe & PI.
So much so that next time I have a song idea I'll get in early, lay down 1 guitar & bass to a click & then beg Greg or Gerry or Joe, or RAMI of kc etc to play on it.
Usually I do heaps of tracking in an effort to convince folk that the song's worth their effort based on the work already put in.
If the song REALLY is worth the effort it should be evident with a guide of chord sequence, a guide melody (but not from me so probably a lyric sheet), and a click.

Wise words, Ray....;)
 

joeym

New member
The tricky stuff moving around the stereo field at the very beginning was cool.

I liked the drums. Maybe cut just a bit out of the snare at around 1K or so? It has a hint of hollowness to it - just a hint. Love the reverb on it. Cymbals are very clear.

Guitars sound real good. Bass sounds good too - it could maybe come a db or two.

Vocals have a nice clear sound. To me they're just a bit too wet.

Something happens at 3:51. Right after the words "fall down". Some little click or something. Is it on the vocal track? Not sure.

Thanx Triple!
I'll check that click out.
 

PoeticIntensity

MagicJones.com (is a website)
You should. It doesn't have to be quantized to a grid, but things should lock together. It just sounds better. This sounds like the drums were added after-the-fact. It sounds like that even with Ido's stuff that you play on. That's not a knock against you or Ido or anyone else. It's hard for me to add drums to RayC's stuff. It's hard for damn near everyone to add drums to existing stuff*. That's cool if that's how you wanna do it, but try it the other way and put down the guitars and bass afterwards, or have your collab coworkers retrack their stuff to your drum tracks. It's probably gonna sound better. I used to do the drums last too, then I switched, and my shit got way tighter. When you're doing collabs over the net or doing your own songs by yourself, you're not a "band". There is no magical "groove" that you capture in a live setting. You're basically building a house. You wouldn't frame and paint a house and then try to lay the foundation underneath it, would you?

*Unless you're Rami.

Everything you're saying sounds right on. I'm gonna change my ways. Just for the record, I'm pretty sure that Gerry has re-tracked almost everything to the new drums (for the songs he's mastered, anyways).

Wise words, Greg. Makes perfect sense.
 

PoeticIntensity

MagicJones.com (is a website)
I like the old school riffs in this and the vocals are brilliant. The drums are nice and tight, but they sound almost too clean next to the guitars. I would run the entire drum bus through a Maximiser or something similar to add a bit of grit and filth into some of the gaps, then blend it with the original drums. Sometimes a touch of distortion can help thing gel better

Might not be a bad idea. Not sure if I'm gonna change much now, but I like the idea for future reference, Bulls. Thanks.

This sounds great guys! Jason, I really like the tone and the vibe of your drums in this. I think it's top-notch stuff. Joe, your vocal sounds fantastic - edgy, and original. I like the arrangement on this tune too - you just can't be nailed down easily to a writing style or genre :D.

Thanks, Brad! I hope my drum engineering is getting better as I go along... Also, I can't say enough good about Joe's vocals, either. They're pretty much as pro as vocals can get.

ahh...just put some duct tape on it.

I'm not a drummer but I have noticed with other drummers that I really like the sound of a coated batter. I don't know shit about brands and such though but that's me 2 cents.

Yeah... Ambassadors are coated. They're just single-ply. Most of the harder rock and metal drum heads are double, or even triple ply so you can smash em'. I've been playing ambassadors now for close to a decade. Might be time to change it up.

I'm just finishing up recording a new album with my band and I laid down the guitars on a click as a scratch for the drummer. This way he could play to the feeling of the song rather than the sterile click. Then we went back in and recorded the bass and guitars over the drum track so we could get the in the groove with his playing more and our dynamics would be more in sync. WAY over thought out, but it seemed to work as far as trying to capture a live feeling with actually tracking together.

Sounds like good wisdom to me. My next song will be done this way.

You're not alone. Most people prefer the sound of coated snare heads.

agreed.

I think I'm gonna revisit that kick / kick click now.
 

PoeticIntensity

MagicJones.com (is a website)
The tricky stuff moving around the stereo field at the very beginning was cool.

I liked the drums. Maybe cut just a bit out of the snare at around 1K or so? It has a hint of hollowness to it - just a hint. Love the reverb on it. Cymbals are very clear.

Guitars sound real good. Bass sounds good too - it could maybe come a db or two.

Vocals have a nice clear sound. To me they're just a bit too wet.

Something happens at 3:51. Right after the words "fall down". Some little click or something. Is it on the vocal track? Not sure.

Hmm... Yeah... I hear it too. Gonna see where the bugger is and get rid of it. Good ears, TripleM. Thanks for the comment!
 

PoeticIntensity

MagicJones.com (is a website)
Messed with the mix some more. Upped the vocals just a bit. Upped the guitars. Messed with the EQ of the kick, and kick / snare levels. Tightened drum timing. Unless I took a serious step backward, I think this one's done.

Final Mix (posted on OP, too)
 

joeym

New member
Sounds more solid now, Jason.
The distorted guitars could come up a bit more, but that could be just me....or as Rami would say, "good for me...":D
 

PoeticIntensity

MagicJones.com (is a website)
Oh, and that click sound TripleM was hearing is the echo effect on the vocals. If I mix it any more, I'll take care of that one...
 

PoeticIntensity

MagicJones.com (is a website)
Sounds more solid now, Jason.
The distorted guitars could come up a bit more, but that could be just me....or as Rami would say, "good for me...":D

Okay... Did some quick fixing. Brought the distorted guitars up, and put a HP filter on the vocal delay to get rid of that click. Shall we call this one done? :) (I just over-wrote the latest mix - Final2.mp3)
 
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dewhitt

Dave DeWhitt
You should. It doesn't have to be quantized to a grid, but things should lock together. It just sounds better. This sounds like the drums were added after-the-fact. It sounds like that even with Ido's stuff that you play on. That's not a knock against you or Ido or anyone else. It's hard for me to add drums to RayC's stuff. It's hard for damn near everyone to add drums to existing stuff*. That's cool if that's how you wanna do it, but try it the other way and put down the guitars and bass afterwards, or have your collab coworkers retrack their stuff to your drum tracks. It's probably gonna sound better. I used to do the drums last too, then I switched, and my shit got way tighter. When you're doing collabs over the net or doing your own songs by yourself, you're not a "band". There is no magical "groove" that you capture in a live setting. You're basically building a house. You wouldn't frame and paint a house and then try to lay the foundation underneath it, would you?

Damn, that is perfectly said. Especially the part about collab and building a house, etc. You are a wise man, Greg.

To add to that, I am in the position of going back through all my tracks and adding real drums to them, but luckily for me, I fully ascribe to the above philosophy, so I have absolutely no qualms about quantizing the tracks and moving hits and stuff around if needed to lock it up with the originally recorded tracks. In a perfect world, I would have a killer four or five piece band, and we would be so well-rehearsed that everything would be as tight as shit, and then we'd record the rhythms live and get that "magical groove" Greg referenced above. But....I am just a one man band, sitting in my basement dreaming up songs and trying to translate what I hear in my head into a good final product. I don't care what it takes to get to that end, I am not trying to capture a performance, I'm trying to create a killer recording/mix of my songs. To me it's kind of funny that many of us have different limits that we set for ourselves regarding what we will and won't do to "fix" things. Personally, I know I can play the guitar, I can sing, and if I need to, I can play my shit live. Other than that, who cares? I say make the recording as good as it can possibly be.

Whew! Sorry about that...a little bit of a rant, but I guess that touched a chord.

Jason and Joe, you guys both rock and I love this song. The drums still seem a little off from the rest of the mix though, there are little timing things here and there. As I said above, if it were me, I'd probably fix it, but that's a personal thing. Overall, this is really cool and I'm going to be listening again just because I liked it :)

Best Regards,

Dave
SoundClick artist: Dave DeWhitt - page with MP3 music downloads
 

TripleM

Well-known member
Okay... Did some quick fixing. Brought the distorted guitars up, and put a HP filter on the vocal delay to get rid of that click. Shall we call this one done? :) (I just over-wrote the latest mix - Final2.mp3)

I can still hear the click. It's better, but I still think I'd hear it even if I weren't listening for it.
 
R

RAMI

Guest
*Unless you're Rami.

LOL! :D

Just for the sake of accuracy, I have to make it clear that, even though I do my drums last, I'm not only playing to the other recorded tracks. I'm playing to the other recorded tracks ALONG WITH the click track that they were recorded to. Well, not a click track, but a programmed drum beat with the kik on 1 and 3, and the snare on 2 and 4. So, it's not much different than doing the drums first. I'm still playing to a "click," but I'm also playing along to the rest of the "band", which just happens to be me.
 

PoeticIntensity

MagicJones.com (is a website)
Damn, that is perfectly said. Especially the part about collab and building a house, etc. You are a wise man, Greg.

To add to that, I am in the position of going back through all my tracks and adding real drums to them, but luckily for me, I fully ascribe to the above philosophy, so I have absolutely no qualms about quantizing the tracks and moving hits and stuff around if needed to lock it up with the originally recorded tracks. In a perfect world, I would have a killer four or five piece band, and we would be so well-rehearsed that everything would be as tight as shit, and then we'd record the rhythms live and get that "magical groove" Greg referenced above. But....I am just a one man band, sitting in my basement dreaming up songs and trying to translate what I hear in my head into a good final product. I don't care what it takes to get to that end, I am not trying to capture a performance, I'm trying to create a killer recording/mix of my songs. To me it's kind of funny that many of us have different limits that we set for ourselves regarding what we will and won't do to "fix" things. Personally, I know I can play the guitar, I can sing, and if I need to, I can play my shit live. Other than that, who cares? I say make the recording as good as it can possibly be.

Whew! Sorry about that...a little bit of a rant, but I guess that touched a chord.

Jason and Joe, you guys both rock and I love this song. The drums still seem a little off from the rest of the mix though, there are little timing things here and there. As I said above, if it were me, I'd probably fix it, but that's a personal thing. Overall, this is really cool and I'm going to be listening again just because I liked it :)

Best Regards,

Dave
SoundClick artist: Dave DeWhitt - page with MP3 music downloads

Thanks for the kudos, Dave.

I've always been torn about "perfection" in music. The tools exist now to make everything perfect, rhythmically and tonally. I'd guess that close to 100% of the stuff on the radio now-a-days has been put through a beat detector and auto-tuner. That's all well and good, and I generally enjoy listening to the stuff played on the radio from time to time....

...but here's the problem: It all has the same sound. When a computer alters the music, the alteration is programmatic, and therefore will mold all music using the same algorithms. If you ran two completely different different pieces of music through the same software 100 times each, they'd come out sounding a lot more similar than they did previously. This is inevitable, because it's what computers do.

For me, there's gotta be a balance. Dave, I hate to use what you did recently as an example, but it illustrates the principle so well... You recently created a wonderful piece of music, one with software drums, and one with a live drummer. When I listened to the two, the only distinguishing factor between the live and programmed drums were the cymbals. There was no human element to the drums at all. In fact, unless I'm mistaken, drum samples were even used to enhance the sound of the acoustic drums themselves. So, basically, software was used to enhance the timing, and the sound of the the drums. So one has to question - why use acoustic drums at all? Where's the human element of the rhythm?

...and then there's the other side. When timing sucks, and the sound sucks, then it's agonizing to listen to. Nobody likes that. Gotta fix that crap. Ideally, we would all be Greg, and be able to rip through a song, with no fixes at all, and rock so hard that all the timing "issues" are just the elements to remind us that he is indeed human.

I hate to ramble like this, but another fantastic illustration is the thread Keith started, asking us to post all our "first post" stuff. Stuff we recorded when we didn't have a clue what we were doing. Listening to all of that stuff made me almost hate all the electronic crap we put our music through. Songs by all sorts of people here made me grin from ear to ear, and the recordings, in some cases, were done all live. Little, if any, mixing at all. This, of course, is an extreme. Nobody is gonna put stuff like that on the radio, but on the other hand, very few cases exist where radio music has made me enjoy listening to music as much as that thread did.

So... Yeah.. I think music should be well done and fun to listen to. Whether or not that entails forcing perfection upon it is something I'm constantly battling within myself.

Forced / computerized perfection definitely comes at a price.
 

PoeticIntensity

MagicJones.com (is a website)
Reading that post again, after posting it of course, made me realize it could sound very offensive and attack-ish to Dave. That was not my intention. I think Dave is an amazing musician, and I only wish I could sing and produce music as well as he can. My point was just about forcing perfection, and where the balance should be in putting acoustic music through electronic perfection mechanisms.

No harm intended, and I apologize if any harm was done.
 
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