guhlenn
Oh REALLY????
heh. I need em for tuning purposes too. Or at least my inborn uncertainty does. but thanks. I do my own intonation so ...
Codmate
New member
It still sounds and looks unprofessional.Light said:
Audiences expect not to have to stand around while bands audibly tune up these days.
I think you're making the rather patronising and wrong assumption that those of us who use tuners live *can't* tune by ear.
I've been playing live music since I was thirteen years old and I can tune fine thanks. I know about all sorts of methods of tuning and have a reasonable understanding of the maths behind music theory (I had a friend who was into Harry Partch, built a microtonal marimba and he taught me much about it).
The main reason for using a tuner live is that it is quick and silent.
If you lose a string in the middle of a song (especially on a guitar with a floating bridge) you can carry on without switching guitars with the minimum of fuss.
Tuning between songs no longer makes you look like an inexperienced teenager.
Seriously - audible tuning is one of those things that can wreck an audience's suspension of disbelief (important if you're trying to maintain an atmosphere).
Sure, you have to tweak your tuning as you go along during songs - that's all part of being a musician (celtic harp pieces have re-tunings during songs as a matter of course); but the tuner gives you a reference point. Rather than shouting at the keyboard player - "oi give me an A", or trying to guess from what's going on around you in a noisy environment with variable monitoring, you just put your foot on the pedal, get a reference for each note and work from there.
Every time we 'tune' to the diatonic scale we are tempering rather than tuning anyway. Ever heard a perfectly tuned (rather than tempered) piano?
I have. It sounds horrible as our ears are not culturaly 'in-tune' with it. This is also why music from other cultures can sound weirdly out-of-tune before you get used to it.
Having a rant against electronic tuners is typical for somebody involved in music, but not actually playing it on a day to day basis. They are a very practical and very useful tool. Of course there is no substitute for tempering by ear - but tuners have a very important part to play in a live situation and can be very handy in the studio too if you know how to use them.
Codmate
New member
Light said:
Piano's should never be perfectly tuned - that's why piano tuners use their ears to TEMPER them. Never use a piano as a reference.
You say electronic tuners wander and then tell us you take your reference from a piano in the studio!
I'm sorry - I just can't take what you're saying seriously any more!
Piano's wander more than an Aboriginy on walkabout.
Plus they aren't perfectly tuned (using 'just intonation') as they sound awful if they are!
FALKEN
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Light said:
In a typical Live situation this would be completely unprofessional.
FALKEN
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Light said:
oh, Lord!
Light said:
wha????
E
Ed Dixon
New member
Light said:
Total BS. You may know a lot about fixing guitars, but you are totally clueless to the real world of live music.
Tuning by ear fixes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. .It is just a tuning approach, which for most folks, is far less accurate than tuning with some electronic device. If an instrument has tuning problems, tuning by your ears WILL NOT FIX it. Other actions are needed.
Sure there are people who have perfect pitch, and people whose tuning ears are very good. Your ears may be very good. But they are in the minority. To even suggest that people, in mass, should only trust their tuning ears is not only unwise, but just plain stupid. And to suggest they tune by their ears for live music is unprofessional.
For a 31 year old, who also claims to have 31 years of guitar experience, your advise in this area is poor. Your advise has also changed somewhat from thread to thread. In this thread you are suggesting that the only/best tuning approach is by your ears, which is also the least expensive. However in a recent thread on the same subject your comments were different then:
“There is no question, however, that you need to have a strobe tuner if you want to get intonation set right. The difference is quite a big deal, as the discrepancies get amplified as you go further up the neck.
Light”
I’ve worked on a few guitars over the decades, but have no claim as being an expert in this area. I know enough to do most of the things I need to do. However I do have a lot of experience in playing live, with lots of other folks. I have watched many folks go through the steps of trying to tune their guitars in live environments. This has included indoor jobs, outdoor jobs acoustic jobs, and a range of other combinations. Not one of ten even come close who used that approach.
Tuning by ear is a little like playing by ear. Some have it and some don’t. The ones that don’t have that ability, rarely learn it. They must depend on something or someone else.
Most electronic tuners do very well, and on average much better than the ears of the owner. Unless there is some battery or other mechanical fault, they do not wander either. What they do today will be absolutely what they do tomorrow, which is a better record that most folks ears. Rack mount tuners are even more reliable as batteries are not involved.
The folks on this board may be above average in tuning abilities, as many are involved in home recording. However in general, a fair percentage of folks could not tune their guitar well by ear in a church at midnight, which if you've ever been there at midnight is a pretty quiet place. Based on the folks I've encountered over the decades, it's way more than half who would have problems tuning only by ear.
Ed
I
Imaduck
New member
If all of you are so damned concerned about tuning and think you have "perfect pitch" (which, BTW, I think is BS -- I find it funny that the "perfect pitch" is always defined by the person with "perfect pitch") then why don't you all just play fretless guitars? Then it doesn't matter what tuning your in as you can adjust your playing and positions by ear as you go. No need to worry about bad frets or nuts, just adjust your fingers, or is that not "perfect" enough?
Anyway, despite what anybody says, if you're making music for the masses, 99.9% of the masses know jack about good tunings or perfect pitch (I believe a study showed that that average person cannot distinguish between notes of 3 cents of difference), so using an electronic tuner is just fine. There are so many other variables that go into pitch (the bend of the string as you play it, air properties of the room, each listener's specific ears and idea of pitch, etc.) that, no matter what you do, somebody's gonna say you're wrong, and the general public won't care. Using electronic tuners saves you the hassel of worrying about if you're in tune with the rest of the muscicians at all times because, as long as everybody has good tuners, you've all got the same general reference point. Unless, of course, you're playing with a untunable instrament (ie piano), which in that case requires you to tune to that pitch (ie an orchestra). The point is, you tuning snobs can just go buy some damn fretless guitars, and then shove 'em up your bum.
Good day.
Anyway, despite what anybody says, if you're making music for the masses, 99.9% of the masses know jack about good tunings or perfect pitch (I believe a study showed that that average person cannot distinguish between notes of 3 cents of difference), so using an electronic tuner is just fine. There are so many other variables that go into pitch (the bend of the string as you play it, air properties of the room, each listener's specific ears and idea of pitch, etc.) that, no matter what you do, somebody's gonna say you're wrong, and the general public won't care. Using electronic tuners saves you the hassel of worrying about if you're in tune with the rest of the muscicians at all times because, as long as everybody has good tuners, you've all got the same general reference point. Unless, of course, you're playing with a untunable instrament (ie piano), which in that case requires you to tune to that pitch (ie an orchestra). The point is, you tuning snobs can just go buy some damn fretless guitars, and then shove 'em up your bum.
Good day.
M
Mr songwriter
New member
Ed Dixon said:
That makes sense, unfortunately, I've only got a cheapo Korg digital tuner, though I did notice if I tune the low E one cent flatter than the central position my guitar sounded more in tune than otherwise (except for on open E) though I'll have to wait and see if that deviation reamins constant, or if my tuner is just 'wandering like an aborigine on walkabout' So maybe the best solution is to use an electronic tuner in a live situation, but try and learn to work around their limitations as they apply to your own guitar, i.e. tune it by ear/chords and then check the readings you're getting on your tuner and tune to them.
E
Ed Dixon
New member
Many low cost tuners are very effective. As you say, it's always a case of learning how to use a tool that best fits your playing style and needs.
However battery powered tuners do vary somewhat. The issue is usually battery level. Some just stop working when batteries get low. However some appear to work, but give incorrect results. If you have one of those, it might be time to shop for a new tuner.
Using recharageable batteries can also be an effective approach. Most work well well and life time costs are very low. The concept of "new day, new battery" is a good one to follow.
Ed
However battery powered tuners do vary somewhat. The issue is usually battery level. Some just stop working when batteries get low. However some appear to work, but give incorrect results. If you have one of those, it might be time to shop for a new tuner.
Using recharageable batteries can also be an effective approach. Most work well well and life time costs are very low. The concept of "new day, new battery" is a good one to follow.
Ed
E
Ed Dixon
New member
You can get rechargables on EBay for about 1$ each in quantity. Put a small velcro strip on each and small wood strips with matching velcro. A small strip can easily hold 8 9V batteries, ready for use and no chance of touching and destoying themselves.
Put the strip in a small zip lock bag and keep in your gig bag. You'll never be without fresh batteries again. Keep a second zip lock, marked differently, for ones you remove that need recharging.
Ed
Put the strip in a small zip lock bag and keep in your gig bag. You'll never be without fresh batteries again. Keep a second zip lock, marked differently, for ones you remove that need recharging.
Ed
G
ggunn
Crystal Flavolian
I agree with most of what you say (electronic tuners may offend some "golden ear" folks, but for most of us they work fine), but if you break a string on a floating bridge guitar, PUT IT DOWN. Any adjustments you make on the fly are going to be ineffectual, and they will make it all the harder to bring back in tune when you replace the string.Codmate said:
When I break a string on my Strat, every other string goes way out of tune because the bridge moves, and changing the tuning on any string changes all the rest. If I replace the broken one with another identical string without trying to adjust any of the others and bring it up to pitch, it pulls all the rest pretty close.
Codmate
New member
ggunn said:
True - but with the help of a tuner you can generally finish the song before switching
M
Mr songwriter
New member
Cheers for the tip Ed, I will check that out, funnily enough, I've just started using rechargeables for my pedals, due to my chorus pedal sounding a bit odd when I tried to run it with an adapter, it was offending my 'golden ear'. Lol.
G
ggunn
Crystal Flavolian
Codmate said:True - but with the help of a tuner you can generally finish the song before switching
Not me, not on my Strat. When a string breaks, the rest go way sharp. If I bring one string down to pitch, it sends the rest even farther sharp. If I go all through them one at a time bringing them down, then by the time I get to the end, the first one is sharp again. And when I replace the broken string, I have to go through the whole rigamarole in the other direction.
I put the Strat down, finish the song with the Les Paul, and replace the broken string afterwards. If I haven't putzed with the tuning pegs on the other strings, when I bring the replacement string up to pitch, the rest will be pretty close. If I have, well then it takes a while, so I'll be finishing the set with the Paul.
G
GoldFalcon
New member
I don't have a thing against digital tuners, but I have never used one on stage. I am a single (no band) and use acoustics exclusively. If I happen to be jacked into my PA (very rare -depends on the venue) then I just pull down the gain and make a quick adjustment. If the guitar is mic'd I either make minor adjustments right there or get out of the mic and get back in tune.
Those of use who are acoustic guitarists exclusively and primarily play fingerstyle do not have the same tuning needs as those of you who play electric or flatpicked or aggressive acoustic.
I am rarely out of tune on stage, and if I break a string then I finish the song and switch to my backup and restring at the set break.
Those of use who are acoustic guitarists exclusively and primarily play fingerstyle do not have the same tuning needs as those of you who play electric or flatpicked or aggressive acoustic.
I am rarely out of tune on stage, and if I break a string then I finish the song and switch to my backup and restring at the set break.
Light
New member
Codmate said:
Can you even read?
I said I print a reference tone from the piano AS IT WAS TUNED WHEN IT WAS RECORDED. The reference is not the piano, it is the tape. Once it is printed to tape, the piano is not going to retune itself. The TAPE may end up at a different speed, but the piano is fixed at that point.
And for what it is worth, tuning to a reference tone on tape is somthing I learned as SOP from guys who have made more records than every signle person here, combined. (For those of you who don't get sarcasim, yes, that was a hyperbolic coment, but not by much. You want to argue with Eddie Kramer on how to make records?)
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Light
New member
Codmate said:
I then finish the song and change the string while telling some yarn. I mean jesus, haven't you ever seen a REAL folk music show (if they had a drummer or a bass player, it doesn't count).
Codmate said:
Why would I want to suspend anyone's disbelief?
That is not why I'm there. I am there to share some songs, tell some stories, make a conection of some sort, and to give and have fun. Having my guitars actually in tune is a part of that. Trying to make it sound in tune with a tuner is not. Different songs need different tunings. For instance, I have a song where the most important thing is for the first chord of the bridge to be perfect. All the chords before that are percusive enough that you will never hear if they are not perfect, and those after get a possitive boost by the the sound of that first chord. So what I do is hit that chord while telling some story to the audience, and I get it in tune while I talk. Then I start the song, and no one really even noticed I was tuning. They are usually too busy laughing.
Light
"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi
Codmate
New member
Light said:
I've seen plenty of folk music shows thanks.
When I supported Nick Harper I saw him break a string during playing, re-string *during the song* (I also saw Jan Ackerman do this - but only on TV) and tune up no problem *using a tuner*.
In fact Nick Harper takes a laptop around with him stuffed with electronic wizadry.
It sounds as though for your stuff you don't need one - but don't assume the rest of us don't.
My band puts on a themed and atmospheric show.
If we lose the atmosphere by audible tuning or technical problems, it really spoils the show.
How often have you heard pit bands tuning up between numbers in professional musical theatre?
Exactly.
Just because a certain way of doing things works for you, don't assume we are all somehow inferior if other ways work better for us. We're all doing different things after all.
Codmate
New member
Light said:
I'll argue with anybody about how to make records!
I've never had much respect for authority.
I guess that using a reference tone on tape makes sense becuase tape speed can vary.
I still wouldn't use piano though for the reasons I mentioned, as well as the fact that a piano has all those pesky distracting overtones. If I were to use that particular method I'd record a perfect sine-wave at 440 on one track and temper everything relative to that.
Suggest that to Eddie when you see him!
Codmate
New member
ggunn said:
Maybe this is true for other floating bridges - but weirdly my deluxe strat seems to not mind string breakages nearly so much.
You can always cheat by tuning up a tone and transposing anyway
Hmmm - probably easier to pick up the LP in retrospect
