Is this the final solution to guitar intonation problems?

[Hard2Hear]

I have my guitars tuned by ear to certian chords. Mostly tuned to the keyboard. I have guitars tuned around E, around D, and around G, and use different guitars for different songs. Ive been doing this forever. An E tuned guitar never sounds good in a D song. I'm not talking different tunings, just slightly different tuning depending on the key it will be played in. Then I create guitar changes around setlists.

Works for me.
H2H

 

[Ed Dixon]

And I DO have experience with the Earvanna nut, and it is a rip off. It is certainly true that the distance from the nut to the first fret needs to be modified from the theoretical distance given by the rule of 18 (well, the rule of 17.835, or the rule of 17.817 - in actuality it is the reciprocal or the inverse of the reciprocal of the constant, with the constant being the twelgth root of two). This is a well established and know thing. The thing is, builders have always done this just as a part of how we build. I don't know anyone who doesn't. So don't worry about it.

The rule of 18 is used to lay our fret placements on guitars. It can be simply stated as:

The standard fret spacing is the Antonio Torres developed "rule of 18" each fret is 1/18th less then the one before it.

The actual ratio used is not 18, but slight less at 17.817152.

However many article are available via Google that discuss the practical problems with this and guitars for the first few frets. Pressing the string down stretches it a bit, lengthens it a bit, and the effect is stronger near the nut. It further varies by string, as strings are different size and made differently.

Various tuning aids attempt to address this issue. The Earvana nut is one approach. The Buzz Feiten approach is another.

Some guitar makes include this as standard, while other aftermarket firms like Warmouth offer it on their custom necks. Each approach has its pros and cons, and each player has to decide what works best for them.

Ed

 

[Mr songwriter]

Each approach has its pros and cons, and each player has to decide what works best for them.

Ed

What works best probably will vary from player to player as not everybody will press down as hard when fretting a particular string (or hit the strings as hard) According to Earvana, you would have to have 36 frets per octave to have perfect (or near enough) intonation on a guitar, then again, they would say that, wouldn't they?

 

[Codmate]

I can't much, anymore. But when I did, I always tuned by ear. You just need to learn how.

Are you trying to tell me I can't tune my guitar?!

I'll be asking you to step outside sir.

 

[lpdeluxe]

When I lived in Glendale CA, in the late '70's there was a gentleman there whose goal was "perfect" intonation. He built guitars with 31 frets per octave. To accommodate all the different keys, each fret was segmented across the fretboard so that it was the proper length for only one of the strings. I guess he could play it, but I never heard him. You'd need some serious technicque to play THAT string on THAT short length of fret every time.

Maybe "perfect" intonation ain't worth it?

 

[mshilarious]

When I lived in Glendale CA, in the late '70's there was a gentleman there whose goal was "perfect" intonation. He built guitars with 31 frets per octave. To accommodate all the different keys, each fret was segmented across the fretboard so that it was the proper length for only one of the strings. I guess he could play it, but I never heard him. You'd need some serious technicque to play THAT string on THAT short length of fret every time.

Maybe "perfect" intonation ain't worth it?

31 eh? I once plotted a fretboard with 16 frets per octave based on a 19-tone scale (leaving out the most-distant sharps & flats), but 31 is near lunacy.

For those who've never looked at microtones, one theory of temperament holds that different levels of consonance are obtain additively, using the number of tones in the next lesser scale: pentatonic, diatonic, twelve-tone (7+5), 19 (12+7), 31 (19+12). A microtonal fretboard, still based on equal temperament, lets you get much closer to purer-sounding temperaments by only using 12 of the microtones out of the 19 (or 31) that are available to you for each key.

Taking a 31-tone equal temperament fretboard AND making intonation adjustment for each string? That guy really needs help, and that's coming from an ear that can't stand equal temperament.

 

[FALKEN]

The solution to intonation problems is to get and keep your guitar well setup and intonated, and to learn how to tune it. I tune by ear, which is not only the best method, but the cheapest.


If people hadn't decided to rely on electronic tuners (which NEVER get your guitar in tune), none of these things would even exist.


For those who can't hear that well on stage, spend the time to get your guitar in tune, and then learn how far off from theoretical each string needs to be on your tuner, and do it that way.


In the end, all of the various "inventions" trying to solve a guitars tuning problems are, as my friend Frank Ford would say, solutions without a problem.



Light

No offense, Light, but this is just about the worst advice I've ever heard. Tuning on stage has got to be the most unprofessional tell-all of a shit band. I CAN NOT BELIEVE when some asshole cranks up his marshall (usually solid-state) stack and then starts tuning to his harmonics at full freaking blast. what the f... and then he's not even in tune with the bass player! frigging IDIOT! Not to mention that this board is about RECORDING. how the hell can you make a recording without using a digital tuner???? frigging MESS.

but I will grant you that you played out solo acoustic, and in that situation tuning by ear is somewhat acceptable. and orchestras. not usually for recording guitars though. come on. I would say this would work in a small minority of situations.

As far as learning "where" on the tuner the notes are correct...maybe I am just not enlightened to this. I have had crappy tuners that always left me out of tune. I have a pretty good one now...It senses more difference than I can with my ear. Leaves me perfectly in tune every single time. I throw an A/B switch in front of it and I can tune in the middle of a song. plus I don't annoy the living shit out of the audience.

Is there something I don't know about tuning a guitar and this "where the strings fall" notion?

 

[mshilarious]

how the hell can you make a recording without using a digital tuner???? frigging MESS.

but I will grant you that you played out solo acoustic, and in that situation tuning by ear is somewhat acceptable. and orchestras. not usually for recording guitars though. come on.

A keyboard works fine, or a properly tuned piano . . . I mean you really only need one note. I haven't owned a tuner in 18 years.

It's funny that you mention an orchestra. They seem fine with dozens of instruments tuned to a single note from an oboe, all in about 30 seconds.

 

[FALKEN]

A keyboard works fine, or a properly tuned piano . . . I mean you really only need one note. I haven't owned a tuner in 18 years.

It's funny that you mention an orchestra. They seem fine with dozens of instruments tuned to a single note from an oboe, all in about 30 seconds.

I agree with you totally. Just don't do it thru a marshall stack!!

I personally would not trust my ears more than a tuner. how much would it SUCK to ruin a recording over something so easy to get right?

 

[Ed Dixon]

Tuning guitars in a band would also go quickly, if each had only one string. Most orchestra tuning occurs before the concert and usually not during it.

For cases where tuning is needed during a set (perhaps due to tremelo action), the only professional choice is a muted electronic assist device.

Ed

 

[mixmkr]

is a muted electronic assist device.

Ed

is that a fancy name for a Boss TU-2??

I use one all the time...works great, and I especially love the mute function. Tuning up while the keyboard player plays in Eb is a cinch!!

 

[Ed Dixon]

Yes, or any other electronic tuner. some here seem to take offense to the term "digital tuner".

My rig has four separate tuners as part of different rack units. The G-Major is on all the time. The V-Amp works fairly well. My Roland synth gear also includes a tuner, as well as a POD XTL pedal used for Variax control and power.

Ed

 

[astoebe]

I would like to add that I played in a band with a vocalist/guitarist who ALWAYS tuned by ear.....oh my word what a nightmare. He had great pitch, but tuning by ear in live situations is definitely no good....lots of background noise, not the easiest to hear the waves. If you know what your strings tend to sound like, electronic tuners are very reliable. Even when I record I start there and THEN listen and adjust. I agree that telling guitarists that electronic tuners are bad could be a disaster for many.

 

[Light]

O.K., now let us look at what I said, and this time read the whole thing.

If people hadn't decided to rely on electronic tuners (which NEVER get your guitar in tune), none of these things would even exist.


For those who can't hear that well on stage, spend the time to get your guitar in tune, and then learn how far off from theoretical each string needs to be on your tuner, and do it that way.

All of the modern "solutions" for intonation problems are an attempt to fix a problem that never existed when people tuned by ear, but you have to tune right. You MUST tune to a chord, and all you can do with harmonics is untune your guitar. The chord I use is a big E power chord which stretches the tuning from low to high. Every key sounds good, and every chord sounds reasonable. There are songs where, if I am recording, I might need to tune to some of the more unusual chords I play, but that is an exception rather than the rule. It is impossible to make every note on the guitar right, period. If you have any understanding of temperment, you understand this. An E which is perfect as the fifth of an A chord will sound like absolute shit as the third of a C chord. Thirds (and sixths and seconds and sevenths, but thirds are a bigger issue) need to be tuned differently. They just need to be. So all you can do is try to find some compromise which sounds good, and equal temperment is impossible with a guitar, and doesn't sound very good anyway.

Granted, I never play with keyboards, and I rarely play with drumers, which almost certainly colors my views on the subject, but tuning to the "legal" pitches on an electronic tuner never works.


Oh yeah, and FALKEN, in a typical live situation, I can touchup my guitar's tuning in about 5-10 seconds by ear. Match that with an electronic tuner. It can't even detect the pitches that fast.

And Ed, I calculate the rule of (about) 18 on a fairly regular basis, I know what it says. The actual number is 17.81718043152884987303028774174, if you want to be precise about it.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Clive Hugh]

I have to join in on this, I am deaf, I am fucking deaf. The whole gig has heard what the next song is before I have worked out what was said.(courtesy of the army when I was 18, then heavy engineering in fabrication shops plus of course R"n"R)
I simply cannot tune my guitar, even worse with light strings. I know when it is out but need my tuner. End of story. But I have found this system works best.
Using 440 as zero on the tuner
E- 442
A- 441
D- 441
G- 441.5
B- 441.75
E- 442

And most of the audience are pissed anyway, wth half having trouble remaining upright, so they won't notice .

 

[Light]

Not to mention that this board is about RECORDING. how the hell can you make a recording without using a digital tuner???? frigging MESS.

I didn't even notice this at first.

I would NEVER use an electronic tuner for recording. Back in the tape days, the first thing on any tape I was involved with (right after tones) was 30 seconds of A 440 to be used as a tuning note (on every track). I still do basically the same thing, with every project having a tuning note on one of the tracks. If there is a piano on a track, the tuning note comes from the piano, otherwise it comes from my metronome, or else I tune my gutiar to a tuning fork before the first take, and hit an open a a few times for the tuning pitch.

Look, electronic tuners wander, and (particularly back in the tape days) you can't always rely on playback being at the right speed (and hench pitch). You need to tune to the pitch of the recording, even if it has wandered a few cents (not at all unlikely with tape; and still a possibility with digital, particularly if you have a cheep word clock). Small differences are so evident under the studio microscope, and electronic tuners are so bad at getting guitars to sound good, I could never use any kind of tuner but my ear for recording. It just doesn't work. Electronic tuners may be convenient, but even when they are acurate (most are not), they still can't tell you when your guitar is right, not unless you have learned to adjust for the chords you actually play.


You know, there is a reason every competent piano tuner in the world still tunes pianos by ear.









Oh, and yes of cousre the stretching down by the nut is a problem. That is part of why a good setup is so important. A good setup includes getting the height of the nut slots right. If they are right, it mimimizes the amount of stretch in the first few possitions. But most guitars nuts are baddly adjusted (at least, most of the ones I see), and every factory made guitar in the world comes out of the factory with a shitty nut adjustment. It is not their fault, really, they just have other priorities. But until it is adjusted the way it should be, the nut can create problems.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[guhlenn]

What about the strobe tuners by Peterson, they let you save different temperaments, and it is available in footpedal...

I myself tune to crappy tuners, but always check with the open E major chord afterwards. Some days the tuner is spot-on, some days not so...

 

[Light]

What about the strobe tuners by Peterson, they let you save different temperaments, and it is available in footpedal...

I myself tune to crappy tuners, but always check with the open E major chord afterwards. Some days the tuner is spot-on, some days not so...

Sure, though I would set them to what you HEAR, as opposed to any of the preset "temperments," myself.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[guhlenn]

the presets are "buzz feiten" and some. but I did mean the ones you like most by ear... but i'm fairly new to this so it was an honest question; is a strobe tuner reliable and is worth spending the extra cash on... or is crappy tuner and ears as reliable. depening on the ears, i know... work with me here...

 

[Light]

the presets are "buzz feiten" and some. but I did mean the ones you like most by ear... but i'm fairly new to this so it was an honest question; is a strobe tuner reliable and is worth spending the extra cash on... or is crappy tuner and ears as reliable. depening on the ears, i know... work with me here...

The only reason you would NEED a strobe tuner is for setting your intonation. But yes, they are worth the extra money, as they are vastly more acurate than other tuners.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi