Is commercial success with non-commercial music possible?

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Nightfire

Nightfire

Aspiring Idiot
As far as history goes bands with commercial success have always been
a) the ones following a trend i.e. commercial mainstream music
b) the ones setting a new trend
It seems like lately the only way you can become big is if your into the new genres such as screamo/emo/poprock scene.
I realize that if your good, no matter what genre, you can achieve some commercial success in that specific genre though it may be a small genre. But Im talking about bigger commercial success than that.
For example, think 70s rock along the lines of Neil Youngs "Hey, hey, my, my" or 80s poppunk like Cheap Trick. People have been there and done that, that time is past. Now its about modern rock like Nickelback and poppunk like Simple Plan or Fallout Boy etc.
The Stones are still rolling along other old time bands still playing old time rock n roll with fair commerical success...BUT thats because they built a fan base when their music was the cool thing of the day.
Can a 70s rock sounding band achieve success, or an 80s raw punk etc.?


Mike
 
it's hard to say..

remember the darkness??? they got popular and i think it was only because of a nostalga/rediculous aspect... 80's rock really can't be taken seriously anymore..

Trendsetters do tend to make it.. but i can't think of very many successful albums that have very much "merit" to them recently...

where have the led zepplins and pink floyd's gone?? I hope that good music will always be successfull.. but in todays market it seems like kids ( 13-18) are the main target market of most major labels.. there are always exceptions to this though
 
I'm pretty sure that nationwide success has quite a bit to do with advertising and promotion. The music industry is just that...an industry. Personally, some of my favorite bands belong to underground cultures and will never make it big.
 
An independant songwriter has almost zero chance of success if he is not writing commercial tunes. By that I mean following all the standard conventions of commercial writing: song form, song time, lyrical content, etc. That DOES NOT mean a commercial songwriter is a "sell out". Quite the opposite, in fact. Being creative within that format is much more difficult than just writing whatever you feel like. (Try writing a bullet-proof commercial song some time...it is double-tough.) Most independant songwriters never even get past the threshold of being published. Of those that do, a very small handful ever actually get a commercial cut...maybe less than 2%.

On the other hand, a songwriter that intends to perform their own material has a much better chance at commercial success (although still very small). They aren't trying to write a song that appeals to many artists, hoping one or more will choose to cut it; instead they're writing for their own voice and style.

Almost anytime you see "non-commercial" songs become hits, they were written by the artist that performed them. Like 99.99% of the time. And most of those artists spent time writing more commercial material until they had a large enough fan base to take chances with their songwriting. Two examples: The Beatles and Sting.

The Beatles spent years writing songs like "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" before they wrote things like "Eleanor Rigby" and "I Am the Walrus".

These days Sting writes songs in 7/8 or 5/4 time about any topic he feels like. He writes entire albums around arcane medieval instruments and poetry. He can do that because he built a colossal fan-base writing songs like "Do Do Do, Da Da Da" and "Walking on the Moon" (both awesome songs BTW).

Either way, the chances of commercial success are infinitely small. Better to be passionate about your music, whatever kind you're making, and find your joy in the journey, not the destination.

A
 
Fuck commercialism and fuck success. If that is the only reason you care to make music than it's not something i care to hear. Forgive my abrasiveness but I really, strongly believe that music should have meaning and integrity and not just a tool for monetary gain. The music industry churns out complete garbage these days. The actual bands are figureheads for the producers that actually wrote all their music for them. In some corporate boardroom a team of marketing specialists review spreadsheets of sales and demographics data and determine which niche they need to fill to maximize their profit this quarter. The order goes out and a band is created to fill the niche. Or a band is remolded and rebranded for the same. In the process nobody wastes a microsecond on thoughts involving the troubling issues of talent, inventiveness or imagination.

The very first thing consulted is the legal department to see just how far they can go in plagerizing any other bands in that market area. I suppose then they send the idea to The Ministry of Love to make sure there is nothing inflamatory to the masses. If there is it's then put in the incinerator and a bland newspeak recreation is sent back once it's aproved for consumption by the somnambulant public.

Then the final product is broadwaved into eveybody's radios, TVs and computers incessantly until finally your senses are so polarized that you don't have a choice as to whether you actually like it or not.

However, if you do still have the ability to decide it's not for you then the stormtroopers arive where you live and put a gun to your head and threaten to let rats eat your face off until you say to love it.

...oh man Orwell crept into my subconsious again. That devious fucker, he totally ruined me to good programming...

yeah I jest but then again comedy parallels life in many ways.....
 
What’s commercial success; bling and Bollinger or a house/studio paid off in a good ‘burb?

If we are to believe the hype, then there seem to be a lot of musicians making non-commercial out there in Internet land with a big enough fan base to do the later. There is also a lot of Hollywood dreamers who say they are ‘professional’ musicians that make squat – still a lot of them can only play S on W riff.

I remember reading that the Police funded their a promotional tour of the US & recording of their first album, with UK gig money and basically pocketed most of the sales from the album; where as normally that would pay back the record co. This went onto provide ongoing financial independence that gave them greater artistic choices from the start.

I think your question is more about the music, but I think in these times of such independence as songwriters, promoters and distributors – that thinking about how you structure the money is as important as you structure your songs.
 
Sonmiun, in no way do I think music should be used as a monetary gain tool...remember Im asking if NON commerical music can be succesfull;)
We would all love to make music our 9-5 job, go on world tours etc. just go play our songs. If our music would be succesfull we'd roll with it and keep writing our stuff.
I gues what Im asking is, is individualism dead when it comes to commerical success or are only brownosers gonna catch the attention of mayor labels? Do labels care about good music, or music that sells? I know the answer to that already, so how about can an independent artist/band achieve success with non commerical music? (trucker punk;))
When I talk about success I dont mean Hollywood, I mean enough to keep living and paying the bills like a 9 to 5 job would.
More food for thought and discussion really...
 
Nightfire, like I mentioned I was just being a wiseguy. In answer to your question I would have to say that right now is a very good time for people making original and individualistic music. I believe that you can achieve success and possibly pay your bills/rent without playing in a cover band. There is a resurgence of interest in off-the-wall sounds and older styles including those from the late 70s and early eighties.

IMO the thing that is making this resurgence possible is the internet. Unlike any other time in the past musicians and bands have a great deal of marketing power at their finger tips. With the internet you not only can establish a local fanbase but you can also network with other isolated pockets of bands and fans in your genre from all over the world. Because you have made your music easily accessible via the internet you also generate interest from talent scouts, DJs, magazines and various organisations that may turn out to be very helpful.

Deb and I are taking a long hard look at our Somnium7 project now. We started it because we were frustrated that we could no-longer find new music in the genres we like to listen to. Since we couldn't buy our music we decided to make our own. Now after a year on myspace and a few forums devoted to our music style we are thinking that we can make this thing take off if we worked it. The interest in our music has us both completely shocked. Most suprising is that it isn't just old-heads like us who are getting turned on by it - alot of younger people are interested in it too. I think that says alot...
For several weeks now we have been debating whether or not to pursue our band full-time and leave our jobs. Our plan as of now is to become "weekend warriors". By doing local weekend gigs we can start testing the waters. After that we'll see what happens...

I say go for it. You never know until you try ...and you may be pleasantly suprised.
Also you should read up on the histories of The Pet Shop Boys, and Front 242. Especially Front 242. Two middle-aged Belgian lawyers to start. They ain't big time, but every club in the world plays Welcome to Paradise or Headhunter and the old farts are still at it after more than 20 years.
 
I think the music industry has changed. Yes, there is still a major role played by the record companies, but technology has changed the product considerably. Instead of albums, more and more focus is on the single song for download.

I think there are two routes to success. The first is to be part of a manufactured product targeted at a specific niche. It's just a job. The second is to build your own fanbase and work from there.

Can you be commercially successful if your music is non-commercial? Well, no. But that doesn't mean that your music has to be the same as what is selling now. There is a great hunger for something new, always. All it means is that enough people will want to pay money to hear it.
 
yeah. selling cd's is strange. people just buy the cd to convert it straight to mp3.

but making as a songwriter is impossible? nah... sufjan stevens, andrew bird, joanna newsom, ray lamontagne, imogen heap...they're still out there.

radio and tv cater HEAVILY to the people that will still choke down that stuff. sites like myspace make it possible to instant message a friend a site and then buy a cd, show up for a show..etc. you can find a million types of music and enjoy whatever you want. i think trend is really going to get less trendy as media is more and more easily accessible and acceptable as an individual instead of huge groups of sheep.
 
This might sound nuts to some of you but I think bands that are just starting out shouldn't sell CDs at all. Yes you do still need them but as long as you still have a day job to cover your bills suck up the cost and give away your discs.

The first time I saw a band do this was in the early 90's with Stabbing Westward. It was a brilliant move then and people loved them for it. Selling your CDs just creates a barrier between you and your potential fans. The people on the borderline, which is to say, the majority of first time listeners are not going to refuse free CDs. But they will very easily think twice about spending their hard earned cash on a band they don't know.

Until the time that Somnium7 has to rely on music related revenues to pay the bills the music is going to remain free to our fans. For now, hey we both have paychecks and we aren't going to starve to death if we sink a few hundred into CDs.
Later on if there is enough demand we can sell other kinds of merch to make up for it if we need to.
 
There is definitely a way to make enough to live on if you play the smaller college tours and whatnot, just look at Roger Cline and the Peacemakers. What used to be the Refreshments turned into that, and all they do is small clubs and colleges. That's how he makes a living, and he's doing quite well... Why couldn't anyone else have a piece of that pie? It certainly doesn't seem unrealistic as long as you are willing to let go of the dream (if you were ever inflicted with that disease) of "making it big".
 
An interesting and very useful book is "The Songwriter's Market."

It has avenues for all kinds of songwriting, and explains the process of getting a song sold.

There are record companies (they make the actual records and distribute them).

There are song publishers (They hear your demo and then try to get it recorded by a successful artist).

You can write for artists, TV, theme parks, etc. There's a lot of work for songwriters and studio musicians, if that's what you want to do.


Unfortunately, in todays world, youth is worshipped, and if you are 30 or older, you aren't going to get picked up as a performing artist for a major label. If you are serious about being a rockstar, you need to be very, very young. The oldest guy to actually make it was Eddie Vedder. He had to fib about his age to get in.


I used to want to be a rockstar, but never made much effort. Then, when I was about 35, my sister (who toured with REM, Ziggy Marley, the Indigo Girls and others) said, "You're too old. Nobody over 29 gets signed by a major label unless they are in country music."
 
You could always do both...take the Black Crowes. They hit it big in the 90's with "that 90's sound" (late 80's??), built a fan base and did what they wanted afterwards. And they still sell pretty good. Also take John Mayer, did the "2k sound" and now switched after building a fan base. basically still a crap shoot out the gate no matter if you try hard writing for mainstream
 
Sucess....

If you can get invited back to play again...that's success.
If you can feed you family with your music then you're successful.
Commercial means getting paid to play.
You can home-rec all you want, but where the rubber meets the road (no pun intended) if nobody is willing to listen or offers you money to play then you have failed in the sense of being commercial.
Art is great, and art for art's sake is a noble pursuit, but the true definition of art includes what happens when somebody else digs it.
The term we use is " Music Business" and that makes it at least half "business".
This works whether you are a cover band or an avant-garde trend setter.


chazba
 
everything

Everything about it really makes me sad. Genuinely sad. I wish it was more fun and less planning and work. I wish there were no walls in people minds that told them that only a young person has something interesting to say, or that only a thin girl can sing well.

To me, what id like to see more than anything is the audience get a grip on their own lives and quit trying to look for music that fits how they wish they were. Music (and i mean a pleasurable magic trick of sound, beat, and lyrical imagery-not just instruments recorded) can be anything to anyone, but i believe it is at its best when it opens people up to be comfortable with things that are unpleasant. It isnt the musical law or anything, but if you can use music to break down walls in peoples minds about who they should or shouldnt be they will be more free to be themselves and ultimately see life as something that is "going to be alright in the end". Thats doing alot for people especially in a world of bad news and wars and all this. To make a distracting pleasurable song cheats all the fucked up shit out of ruining a moment of someones life. Basically, id rather hear a new good song rather than watch the news about how some family wrecked and it backed up traffic for hours. I feel more like i am trying to make a pleasant distraction for people than i feel like i am competing with genres and record sales and all that.

But that being said the audience will not grow up or change much. It is the way of society and really of humans in general. Plus, in all truth the audience shouldnt need to be hand walked to the point of your art, it is your job as the artist to make the point stand out without the curse of being too obvious. Thats where the work pretty much lies i think. Thats where the "artist" part comes in.

But more on topic, i cant remember where i read this quote but i think its a good one about success in music:

"the song is the currency of the music industry"

Whats a bummer about teenagers to me is that youd think by now theyd be hip to how trends play out and sort of mock it. I wish there was a movement in youth culture that was of higher intellect and more on the lookout for things that are obvious frauds. When is being aware going to be hip? Probably never. Its much too easy to just pretend to be fighting the machine with terms like "indie". But the machine still stands. Taller now than ever really.

I have given a TON of thought to people and music and how culture changes and all that. More than youd think. And all i can come up with is just to BE what you want to see in the world. And thats a piss poor bronze medal of a solution to the question of how to gain the attention of the populous, but its all there is. You just have to be what you want to see and cross your fingers and have some good memories and tunes to sift through when youre old and lifes priorities have made old memories more interesting to you than making new ones.
 
Our nation worships youth. The only performers who are famous at 40 or 50 are the ones who became famous in their twenties (or younger).

My wife has a friend that reads all the gossip magazines, like Us Weekly and People, etc. What's interesting, is that every article contains the ages of the celebrities. For example, when you read an article, it goes like this:

Britney (23), is working with producer Joe Blow (32) and directer John Doe (29) for the upcoming film.


It's weird and kind of sick if you think about it. People above the age of 29 are treated like crap unless they are already famous.


It's especially that way in rock. If you are a performing artist, you will not get signed if you are 30 or older.


Thank goodness songwriting isn't that way. You can be a successful songwriter at any age, and you can actually be a successful actor at any age.

The only genre of music that is not 100% youth-oriented is country music, but that's changing too. The newer artists aren't bearded family guys anymore, but more and more are super young dudes. That started with Shania Twain and Kenny Chesney. Folks like that.


Back in the 70s you could be older and still be taken seriously.


Look at Andy Sumners (sp?) of the Police. He was in his late 30s when they took off.
 
KaveKong said:
An interesting and very useful book is "The Songwriter's Market."

It has avenues for all kinds of songwriting, and explains the process of getting a song sold.

There are record companies (they make the actual records and distribute them).

There are song publishers (They hear your demo and then try to get it recorded by a successful artist).

You can write for artists, TV, theme parks, etc. There's a lot of work for songwriters and studio musicians, if that's what you want to do.


Unfortunately, in todays world, youth is worshipped, and if you are 30 or older, you aren't going to get picked up as a performing artist for a major label. If you are serious about being a rockstar, you need to be very, very young. The oldest guy to actually make it was Eddie Vedder. He had to fib about his age to get in.


I used to want to be a rockstar, but never made much effort. Then, when I was about 35, my sister (who toured with REM, Ziggy Marley, the Indigo Girls and others) said, "You're too old. Nobody over 29 gets signed by a major label unless they are in country music."
Click to expand...

Well, if your sister says it, it must be true! :D :D
 
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Thats why I like folk music/singer-songwriter type stuff. That and some underground punk seems to be the only genres where the lyrics have depth, truth, and critical thought in them. And in both genres its very possible to gain success regardless the age.
By the way, the "non commercial" music I was talking about is trucker punk. Think of it as countryrock punk...kind of like Crazy Horse meets Social Distortion.


Mike
 
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