Intonation Problem

[apl]

I put a new set of Snake Oil Brand nickel strings on the Sorrento last night, .011~.050 with a wound 0.018 G.

I can't get the strings short enough! The tune-o-matic travel is very limited. I suppose I could raise the action, but it seems OK where it is.

Any ideas?

 

[Dogman]

I put a new set of Snake Oil Brand nickel strings on the Sorrento last night, .011~.050 with a wound 0.018 G.

I can't get the strings short enough! The tune-o-matic travel is very limited. I suppose I could raise the action, but it seems OK where it is.

Any ideas?

Are these the same guage as what you took off, or bigger?
What exactly is the problem? Hitting a high fret when you play past the 12th one?
Ed

 

[apl]

Are these the same guage as what you took off, or bigger?

Bigger, I think. The guitar hasn't been played for a long, long, time.

What exactly is the problem? Hitting a high fret when you play past the 12th one?
Ed

No, there are no buzzing frets. The intonation is flat, ie, the 12th fretted notes are a couple of cents flat. It so bad, Light, that I can see it without the Strobetuner! There isn't any more travel in the saddles, unless I turn the saddles around under the bass strings. But that won't help with the B and high E.

 

[Dogman]

No, there are no buzzing frets. The intonation is flat, ie, the 12th fretted notes are a couple of cents flat. It so bad, Light, that I can see it without the Strobetuner! There isn't any more travel in the saddles, unless I turn the saddles around under the bass strings. But that won't help with the B and high E.

That seems like quite a bit. Is there anyway to put something between the saddle and string....cut an aluminum can up, and get some really small strips to try? Might work.
Ed

 

[apl]

That seems like quite a bit. Is there anyway to put something between the saddle and string....cut an aluminum can up, and get some really small strips to try? Might work.
Ed

The issue is not getting the strings higher or lower off the fretboard. There's plenty of adjustment left for that. I mentioned raising the action because that would require a longer string to get the intonation right, and then the correct length would fall into the range the saddles can accomodate. I like low action (my DC135 has spoiled me), so I don't really wanna go that route.

 

[mshilarious]

Have you tried using the guitar on the SURF RUMBLE?

 

[apl]

Have you tried using the guitar on the SURF RUMBLE?

No, I just got the strings yesterday, and the strings that were on it were way nasty.

I did try the rumble with the psuedo strat earlier this week, but couldn't come up with anything at all. It was a bit discouraging. I haven't listened to anybody else's yet 'cuz that'd be cheating, kinda.

 

[ggunn]

Bigger, I think. The guitar hasn't been played for a long, long, time.



No, there are no buzzing frets. The intonation is flat, ie, the 12th fretted notes are a couple of cents flat. It so bad, Light, that I can see it without the Strobetuner! There isn't any more travel in the saddles, unless I turn the saddles around under the bass strings. But that won't help with the B and high E.

Gnomes in the gnight have moved your bridge. Stand in a pentagram at midnight and swing a dead cat around your head three times, spit over your left shoulder, click your heels together three times and repeat "there's no place like home" over and over until your intonation comes back in.

Yeah, it's Friday.... ;^)

Was the intonation ever for sure correct on this guitar? Could the truss rod be set too tight (bowed back)? You did say that you have no buzzing frets, though so that doesn't seem likely.

If you were to remove the strings and bridge, are the studs that hold the bridge maybe bent away from the neck? I'm assuming a Les Paul type of setup for the Tune-O-Matic. I AM NOT ADVISING YOU TO DO THIS, but hypothetically, if you were to bend the studs a little toward the neck, you could possibly move the bridge enough in that direction so that the intonation sweet spot would be in the saddle adjustment range. There of course would be a tilt effect on the bridge that would have to not be a problem.

Moving the studs is of course major surgery and hard to do just a little bit as the old and new holes would overlap.

That's all I have. Good luck.

 

[apl]

Was the intonation ever for sure correct on this guitar? Could the truss rod be set too tight (bowed back)? You did say that you have no buzzing frets, though so that doesn't seem likely.

Truss rod is fine. I had to tighten it up a smidge for the fatter strings.

If you were to remove the strings and bridge, are the studs that hold the bridge maybe bent away from the neck? I'm assuming a Les Paul type of setup for the Tune-O-Matic. I AM NOT ADVISING YOU TO DO THIS, but hypothetically, if you were to bend the studs a little toward the neck, you could possibly move the bridge enough in that direction so that the intonation sweet spot would be in the saddle adjustment range. There of course would be a tilt effect on the bridge that would have to not be a problem.

Moving the studs is of course major surgery and hard to do just a little bit as the old and new holes would overlap.

It's not my guitar. I've got it on indefinite loan, so I can't do any mods.

That's all I have. Good luck.

Thanks. I probably don't have a lot of choice but to raise the action.

 

[Farview]

Try a lighter guage set of strings, or just a different set. Sometimes I get a bum set of strings and the intonation just won't work.

 

[apl]

Try a lighter guage set of strings, or just a different set. Sometimes I get a bum set of strings and the intonation just won't work.

I really want a wound G on this guitar. I think it makes chords richer.

 

[Farview]

maybe just a different brand, then.

 

[Light]

Without seeing it, I just can't say, sorry.

A couple of things to check, though:

How high IS the action (give me numbers, usually an electric should be about 2/32 on the treble side and 3/32 on the bass side.)

Truss rod - fret at the first and 14/15th fret. There should just be enough space between the fret and the string for a business card.

IS the bridge in the right place? Because, you see, going up in string guage should require making the strings LONGER than the old gauge. Measure from the nut to the twelfth fret. Now measure from the twelfth fret to the bridge. When the high E is at it's furthest forward possition, it should be exactly the same as the nut to the twelfth fret, and the low E should be 1/16-1/8th further back.

If none of that helps, then there is something else going on, and you need to get it into the hands of someone who can figure it out. As I said, without seeing it I just don't know.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[apl]

Without seeing it, I just can't say, sorry.

I understand, sir, but I appreciate you giving it a go.

A couple of things to check, though:

How high IS the action (give me numbers, usually an electric should be about 2/32 on the treble side and 3/32 on the bass side.)

It's lower than that. I may have to splurge and get a scale. And better reading glasses!

Truss rod - fret at the first and 14/15th fret. There should just be enough space between the fret and the string for a business card.

Neck bow is good. I did have to tighten it a bit for the heavier strings.

IS the bridge in the right place? Because, you see, going up in string guage should require making the strings LONGER than the old gauge. Measure from the nut to the twelfth fret. Now measure from the twelfth fret to the bridge. When the high E is at it's furthest forward possition, it should be exactly the same as the nut to the twelfth fret, and the low E should be 1/16-1/8th further back.

This guitar is exactly the same as an Epiphone Casino, 'cept it's single cutaway. I don't think I can move the bridge posts. I'd be a bit surprised that they'd be too far out of whack. I'll measure it.

If none of that helps, then there is something else going on, and you need to get it into the hands of someone who can figure it out. As I said, without seeing it I just don't know.

Thanks for your valuable input.

 

[ggunn]

Truss rod is fine. I had to tighten it up a smidge for the fatter strings.



It's not my guitar. I've got it on indefinite loan, so I can't do any mods.



Thanks. I probably don't have a lot of choice but to raise the action.

It might be worth a look to take the strings off, pull the bridge off the posts, and see if maybe the posts are bent. I had that happen to a guitar once; apparently it took a bit of a hit when I had it lent out (I don't do that any more). A bit of adjustment with a hammer (small hammer, light taps) brought it back. DISCLAIMER: IANALuthier, and I do not recommend repairing a guitar with a hammer, but in my case the results were good.

One question: why did you have to tighten the truss rod? Were the lower pitched strings hitting the frets? Could you have accomplished the same thing by raising the action instead?

 

[apl]

One question: why did you have to tighten the truss rod? Were the lower pitched strings hitting the frets?

The heavier strings required more tension, requiring more counter-tension from the truss rod.

Could you have accomplished the same thing by raising the action instead?

No.

 

[Zaphod B]

apl, the TuneOMatic bridge on your Sorrento sits on a wooden bridge, correct? Is the wooden bridge glued to the soundboard, or is it free to move?

 

[apl]

apl, the TuneOMatic bridge on your Sorrento sits on a wooden bridge, correct? Is the wooden bridge glued to the soundboard, or is it free to move?

No, ZB. Here's a pic. I'm not quite sure how it's attached. Now I wish I would have taken all the stings off and taken a look underneath, cleaned the fretboard, etc.

 

[Zaphod B]

apl, if you're set on using that string gauge (especially with the wound G), it seems apparent that the Tune O Matic's limited saddle travel just isn't going to get you there on intonation.

You may find that there are aftermarket bridges with more saddle travel that retrofit directly onto the bridge pegs with no modification required to the guitar. That way you could get your intonation correct without modding the guitar, and have a nice present for the owner if he / she ever reclaims it. Try Schaller's web site at http://www.schaller-guitarparts.de/ - I'm sure there must be others as well.

Good luck!

 

[Light]

See, the thing is, there is no reason you should not be able to get it, if the bridge is in the right place. (Remember how I keep talking about Gibson's QC? Don't take it for granted.) And not being able to get them far enough forward is just wrong. That should never be the case, not for big fat strings like that. They have more tension, so they stretch more as you push, so they should be further BACK than lighter strings. Something else is going on.

But if, as you say, the action is lower than 2/32-3/32, that is probably your problem. I mean, I know that you like the action low. EVERYBODY likes the action low. Just once it would be nice to have someone come in and say, "hey, my action is just too damn low. Could you raise it up really high?" (We do get that somethimes, but not much.) Strings that heavy should usually be way towards the back of the adjustment.

My best advice, though, not surprisingly, is to bring it to someone who really knows what they are doing, and let them look at it.

Oh, and by the by, APL, why do you think I didn't give you those measurements 64ths? But 32ths are not too bad to read, even with my eyes.


Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi