I'm looking for transparent, no frills dual mic pre.

[Recording Engineer]

Transparent isn't as difficult or expensive as colored.

I beg to differ based on all the cheap and crappy-sounding colored preamps out there!

Other than the cost of transformers or the cost of "vintage" tubes in designs, I really can't think of any other significant reason why "colored", would as a general statement, be more expensive than transparent.

I find power supply, cabinet, connection, and feature needs, and major corp vs. boutique (and all of which that relates to that) to usually be the most significant when it comes to expense.

As for level of difficulty, I really don't know... It's all difficult for me... But I would say colored would be more difficult in the sense that when it comes to colored, you've got personal opinion to deal with. Transparent is pretty straight forward... Either it is or it isn't.

 

[ozraves]

OK, the FMR RNP is the best mic pre from a sonic standpoint giving you two channels for under $500. As Harvey pointed out last August, it can hang with the big boys and I'd say it hangs with preamps costing four times as much. I consider it to be a lightly colored pre with some growl. I know more than a few people were disappointed in the price when the RNP came out. I know a lot of us thought that FMR would give us another RNC. The more I've used the RNP the more I'm convinced it outdoes the RNC in terms of value because the RNP get so much use in my rack.

For a more transparent sound, I suggest the Grace 101. Buy two if you need two channels or get an A Designs MP2, which is a very good tube mic preamp, for the same price as two Grace 101 preamps.

Steve,
Mojo Pie

 

[regebro]

well making a transparent pre for use in 'real world' applications must be hard cuz the cheaper stuff i heard doesn't do it well..

What is the "cheaper stuff" you have heard, then?

 

[regebro]

I beg to differ based on all the cheap and crappy-sounding colored preamps out there!

Well, it's obviously easy and cheap to do colored preamps if you do it crappily. What hard is to make GOOD colored preamps.

 

[NathanEldred]

Transparent isn't as difficult or expensive as colored.

No offense, but this couldn't be more untrue. Want Clean? Remove the transformers from a "colored" design. It will become quite uncolored (or mostly clean) very quickly. Just because it's a discrete design doesn't mean that it will have character. The type of capacitor used can actually make a big difference too believe it or not. The OSA line of preamps is a perfect example. The only difference between the 3 preamps is the input transformer. The A model, which uses the Altran, is extremely clean. The C & L models, which use Crimson and Lundahl have more coloration and character.

Nathan Eldred
atlasproaudio.com

 

[Chrisjob]

wow banjo town..

I think the correct term is BANJO DEPOT

 

[Recording Engineer]

Well, it's obviously easy and cheap to do colored preamps if you do it crappily. What hard is to make GOOD colored preamps.

What I was replying to made no mention of "GOOD". It was transparent vs. colored, period.

But even now that you've opened that up, the rest of my reply still stands firm.

And the more I think about the difficulty aspect of it, while I AM in the dark when it comes to that, I do notice and find it interesting that designers who most would agree have nearly "mastered" the art of colored preamps (by what ever means that may have come-about), many are now or always have been on a "quest" for that unreachable (?) "straight-wire-gain" accuracy (which to me is what "transparent" is) and I, along with designers who know what they're REALLY talking about (unlike myself), think they're STILL going about it all with the wrong approach. So with that said, maybe the level of diffuculty swings more toward transparent... But I truly don't know...

...Anyway, just brainstorming here...

 

[Richard Monroe]

For color, I use Joemeek twinQ and Avalon AD2022 (cleaner but still adds "metal" to the sound. For clean, I use a relative cheapie- DBX386, with the tewb drive at *0*. It's actually very transparent.-Richie

 

[regebro]

What I was replying to made no mention of "GOOD". It was transparent vs. colored, period.

Sometimes, something that is not said, can still be deducted from the context, or could otherwise be obvious enough for it not to need to be specifically said.

 

[regebro]

chessrock:
"Transparent isn't as difficult or expensive as colored."

NathanEldred:
"No offense, but this couldn't be more untrue. Want Clean? Remove the transformers from a "colored" design. It will become quite uncolored (or mostly clean) very quickly."

Ok, so in fact, a good colored design is a good transparent design, plus some tranformers. Transformers that obviously need to be tested to see exactly what parameters they should have to give the right amount of coloring.

Hence, making good coloring requires additional components, and additional development, as compared to making a clean design.

So, how come you claim that ChessRocks is incorrect when he sais just this? Make up your mind.

 

[chessrock]

No offense, but this couldn't be more untrue. Want Clean? Remove the transformers from a "colored" design. It will become quite uncolored (or mostly clean) very quickly.

Uh . . . no offense to you, either, Atlas . . .

But help me understand your logic on this one.

If you remove the transformers, you also bring the price down, and thus make it a simpler and less-expensive design (just like I said), don't you? Especially if it's using good transformers (Jensen, Lundhal, etc.) that can drive the price up.

Please let me in on your logic and just how it is that you could be disagreeing with me. Meanwhile, I wouldn't consider becoming a lawyer anytime soon. LOL.

Atlas, the defense attorney: "Your honor, I couldn't disagree with the prosecution any more. If you remove my client from the crime scene, then you have no murder, so . . . "

 

[Mr Funk]

If anyone is interested? The Line Audio DP-1 has been replaced by the DMP. It has been given more headroom, but kept as quiet and clean as it's predecessor. It is also quite a bit cheaper, but has unfortunately lost the LED meters (now just a clip LED's) and the HPF!

www.lineaudio.se

 

[Recording Engineer]

Sometimes, something that is not said, can still be deducted from the context, or could otherwise be obvious enough for it not to need to be specifically said.

Exactly! But in this case, I was taking a bit of an advantage to make a stupid little "funny"; even if I was nothing more than a smirk to myself.

 

[Recording Engineer]

To use some of your own medicine, regebro, I myself DID get the general basis/idea of what Nathan was saying... It's true... Take out the transformers of a Neve and listen to a majority portion of the "Neve sound" wash away! Replace those electrolytics with some films, and you've got a COMPLETELY different, more on the "neutral", almost "transparent" side, type of preamp! If NOTHING else, it'll CERTAINLY be a "clean" preamp, maybe in an Avalon sense!!!

 

[Recording Engineer]

If you remove the transformers, you also bring the price down, and thus make it a simpler and less-expensive design (just like I said), don't you? Especially if it's using good transformers (Jensen, Lundhal, etc.) that can drive the price up. [/i]

Wait a minute... The removal of transformer hard cost makes it a simpler design?

So WHY aren't transparent designs as difficult colored designs?

If all else fails, maybe we can ask Dan Kennedy what he thinks... I see he's around these parts now... And he's sure has recognition for BOTH his transparent and colored designs!

 

[regebro]

If anyone is interested? The Line Audio DP-1 has been replaced by the DMP. It has been given more headroom, but kept as quiet and clean as it's predecessor. It is also quite a bit cheaper, but has unfortunately lost the LED meters (now just a clip LED's) and the HPF!

And it looks good now. The DP-1 is rather ugly.

 

[regebro]

To use some of your own medicine, regebro, I myself DID get the general basis/idea of what Nathan was saying... It's true... Take out the transformers of a Neve and listen to a majority portion of the "Neve sound" wash away! Replace those electrolytics with some films, and you've got a COMPLETELY different, more on the "neutral", almost "transparent" side, type of preamp! If NOTHING else, it'll CERTAINLY be a "clean" preamp, maybe in an Avalon sense!!!

Interesting indeed. I've never built any preamps myself, and this definitely tells me I shouldn't.