I'm intimidated

  • Thread starter Thread starter Oxygenmask
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Oxygenmask

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Hi Everyone,

I'm new to this group. I have read almost all of the posts before I added mine. I have to say that I am very intimidated. I think I'm about to ask the stupidest question ever..., but if I can't figure my problem out, I will feel even more stupid...

OK, I have three boards, and record all digitally (except for the Mackie mentioned next). I run through a Mackie CR1604-VLZ because I spent 1200 on it and I can't bear not to use it. I then run the master outs into my VS880 EX. Also, I find that the RCA FX sends seem noisier out of the VS than the Mackie.

I seem to get great sound through the VS with all regular patches like leads and pads etc..., but the second I add drums, the kicks are all incredibly flat. I can't get any punch to my drums. I turn up the levels, but I clip and it just sounds flat, only louder. I really don't understand mixing. I don't understand the frequencies. Obviously, I know that turning up the low end will boost the bass. But, how do I boost the kick without clipping? I thought it was my headphones. I switched. I thought it might be the fact that I was using cheezy keyboard drums, so I tried the Roland SPD11K, Alesis D4 and other cheezy keyboard drums. I can't spend more money on another piece of equipment because I have an ASR Pro coming. I'm worried that I will get crappy sound when I hook up my new sampler. That might make me chew on broken glass.

If this is too dumb for you guys, can you please send me to the "dumb people place?" I just need some basics. I tried reading through a couple of books on mixing, but I was lost by the 14th page. Once I hear something that sounds right, I can learn from experience, but I need to be pointed the right way. Thank you very much in advance.
 
Mixing can be a headache if you think about it too much, you have to try and mix things the way you want to hear it, or pick your favourite CD and try to copy the mix on that.
Whatever you do, I think you need a sampler to do your drums or loops, you can boost the intensity of them in your sampler so that they sound like you want them to, or even better find a great drum sound that you like off one of your favourite records and sample the fucker, that way the rythms are already produced for you.
 
So, I won't have to eat broken glass? The sampler will allow me to have slamming drums without worrying about low end?
 
Does the kick sound good before you record it? Have you tried any of the 880 effects on the kick drum? For a quick fix, I notice that when I add the Bass Compression (BassComp I think it's called on mine) effect it makes it jump out a lot more. Try experimenting with effects once the sound is recorded into the 880 if you haven't done that yet. With drums from drum machines or software the sounds should be the least of your problems. For most people it's getting a more natural, human feel to the drum tracks. If you sample a drum sound you like from another source, then it should sound the same once in the 880.

As for the mixing, I'm no expert but finding a place for every instrument in the mix is important to preserving sounds from individual tracks that you like. In other words, don't crank up the bass on an acoustic guitar just because it sounds good solo, when you have a bass guitar occupying that space in the mix when everything is added together. Give them some room to sound good. If you have a bass or any other instruments in the mix with the drums, make sure they're not killing the kick and causing it to sound flat. If the kick sounds good by itself, slowly bring in the other tracks and find out where it's starting to sound bad. I don't know if this will help you or not.

It took me a while working with my gear to find out that what sounds good when I'm playing doesn't always work the best with other instruments in a mix. Don't feel like this is a stupid question. I have trouble getting the lower ranges of my mixes to sound good together, as do a lot of people. Keep working at it, reading stuff on this BBS, and asking questions. It's the best resource for recording I've come across.
 
Thank you very much for your replies. I appreciate all the help I can get. I'm a veteran musician, but unfortunately, I don't know much about the mix.

In answer to your question Jon X, no, the kick doesn't even sound good to begin with. I didn't think to try the FX to bring out the low end. I will do that.

I think that the problem just may be that I'm starting with a riff and then working the beat around that (I don't have a good reason for writing that way, it just happens...). I think I will attempt to start off making the drums sound good and work from there. Thanks.
 
oxygen:
well, certainly no reason to think that your question is a "dumb" one. Punchy low end is a challenge to all levels of experience in this recording game, that's for sure.

If your kick seems lacking compared to commercial releases, there's a good chance that a lot of the difference is attributable to sophisticated compression that has been applied to the commercial work. With a kick, likely at both the tracking stage of the individual kick, and overall compression at the mastering stage.

So, I'd start with experimenting with compression on your kick track to learn how that affects the sound. Can't give you too much in the way of specifics with the 880, as I'm a 1680 user. But I understand that there are some good compression patches available on the 880--just use one of the dedicated compression patches, as you'll have more control of the various parameters.

Try http://alesis.com/support/faqs/sp_compbasc.html for a general discussion of compression fundamentals?

[This message has been edited by rocky (edited 06-01-2000).]
 
Oxygenmask,

JonX pointed you in the right direction with regard to the BassComp patch. Try some of the other Bass Guitar patches as well, you may find something you like. Also good advice to beware of competing frequencies with various instruments. Fine line between getting it all to blend and yet carving out space to speak.

I would suggest running out of the drum machine, thru the Mackie EQ and then into the 1680, I mean 880. I had an artist here in South Dakota from Fort Wayne, Indiana and he had a little Nanoverb or something. He had done a good job to begin with, but when I ran the signal thru his Mackie (which has fabulous preamps and excellent EQ for the money - so use it!) it made a huge difference. I guess I also ran it out of his Mackie and then thru my Ramsa Board EQ and then into the VS. Still would have sounded great just thru the Mackie, however.

You have to watch the mix becoming brittle (in my opinion) if you don't use good, clean analog somewhere in the chain. I either introduce it here or burn the master CD, pop it into my pro CD player and run it thru the Ramsa and back into my 1680. It's just so much easier to give it air and warmth that way.

Also be careful about relying too much on the VS pre-amps. They're more than decent (O.K., I'm being a bit generous here), but the Mackie preamps blow 'em away. Use that money you've got sitting there in that machine, unless you decide to modify your 880 by swapping out the op-amps for higher quality ones.

One more thing: pan the instruments in the mix to your advantage. You may find that panning instruments a bit this way or that may do wonders for the sound. Don't have that bass guitar and the kick competing too much in the listening field. Can also do wonders for slightly sloppy BGV's, by the way. Avoid the true center and stear clear of hard left and right pans.

My best to you ~ NattyB
 
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