I did some research on the Mackie/Behringer lawsuit

  • Thread starter Thread starter Chris Tondreau
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Originally posted by Duardo

Behringer has also ripped off Focusrite (British) and AKG (Austrian...and I think they were sued and lost on that one).
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It's true that the Focusrite Voicemaster and the Behringer Ultra-Voice have identical features, but I haven't heard that Focusrite sued Behringer for copying their circuits. And since they're not that small a company, there might be other reasons for that. Maybe the two units are not as identical as people think, I don't know.

I've never heard about an AKG vs Behringer lawsuit, can you fill me in with some details? I can't even think of an AKG product Behringer might have copied...
 
This is exactly the sort of thing that made me post this thread in the first place. There has been a fair bit of interesting discussion so far, but to lay claims of "ripping off" other companies and not substantiate it with anything is doing nothing more than feeding the massive amount of rhetoric that is already out there.

I have supported my original point with direct evidence. Others have quoted from first-hand experience, and others have simply provided interesting discussion on the merits/follies of capitalist markets. That's all good...

I'm sort of curious as to the arguement about "if the design is the same, but the product is built with inferior components, then the final product will somehow be inferior." The logic here is obvious, and of course, valid. I have two questions, though....

1. ARE the components used in Behringer products REALLY inferior to any other mass-marketed product (ie. Mackie, etc.)? (inherent in this question would also be whether they were measurably inferior, or which/how many components, and thus, how relevant would these inferior components be to the final product?

example....designing a computer: One computer uses an inferior ATX tower/case to another design. End result = negligible difference in final product quality, and even then, not related in any way to the product's ultimate performance. One computer using an inferior motherboard/processor combo.... that's a whole other ball of wax.

2. How far does the word "design" actually apply to the final product? If a company designs a mixer, would they simply say "put an op amp here," or would it be more specific and go so far as to say "put a 4580 op amp here and connect it with such and such materials in such and such a way?" The differences here, simply in the definition of "design" are extremely significant. If it was ME designing something, I would like to be as specific as possible, but I'm not an electronics engineer.

Unfortunately, as relevant to question 2, I have come across no data to suggest how far the definition of "design" actually went in the Mackie vs. Behringer case.

Chris
 
Chris Tondreau said:
...to lay claims of "ripping off" other companies and not substantiate it with anything is doing nothing more than feeding the massive amount of rhetoric that is already out there.
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Come on, that cable tester is a blatent rip-off! Just look at the pictures. Behringer didn't even have the courtesy to rearrange the buttons or the connectors. All they did is put a new paintjob on and change the silkscreening slightly. What more substantiation do you need? Does someone have to post copies of internal Behringer memos saying "Hey, let's rip off that Swizz Army tester!"
 
So are you implying that a lemon and a lime are identical - same features in all the same places; same textured surface; different colour....

Come to think of it, I saw an off-brand Discman that looked pretty much identical to the Sony - even the colours were close.

Chris
 
Chris Tondreau said:
So are you implying that a lemon and a lime are identical - same features in all the same places; same textured surface; different colour....
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Give me a break. You either haven't looked at the pictures or you're deluded.
 
Chris, do you have some personal stake in defending Behringer? I'm puzzled by what your motivation is here. Are you maintaining that you have some sort of inside knowledge that Behringer is NOT ripping off intellectual property? Or are you maintaining that is irrelevent to you? Or are you just idly speculating or in some form of denial?
 
No, the only personal stake I have in Behringer is that I own two of their products - together worth a grand total of about $450 Canadian. From my experience from those products, being the best that I can afford, I can honestly say that they have exceeded my expectations. That's it.

My problem is that there is a LOT of rhetoric out there that isn't based on anything concrete. A lot of people say it's crap, but they can't/don't back it up with anything. Like anything else that seems to be widely distributed as fact, I'd like some evidence - which is why I pursued some of the info first hand, rather than relying on my own personal stories, satisfaction, or second-hand impressions.

I'm not maintaining that they aren't "ripping off intellectual property." In fact, in my original post which started the thread to begin with, I included links that seemed to suggest that the two designs were, in fact, the same. Again... trying to get past all the rhetoric and working towards actual factual information. That's it.

My last post, though I admit to being a bit obtuse on that one, was simply to make a point that just because two products LOOK the same doesn't mean they ARE the same. I have not actually dug up photos of the two products. Show me the inside, and you'd have a stronger point. Having said that, (and knowing preciously little about electronics in general), I can't help thinking that a cable tester is likely so simple that ANY cable tester will be inherently the same as the next - sort of like comparing a Fender patch cord with a Jim Dunlop patch cord.... how different can they be, really?

Chris
 
Chris Tondreau said:
I have not actually dug up photos of the two products.
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You obviously haven't read your own thread very carefully. Links to photos of the two products were provided above.

Why do I have a feeling that, after seeing them, you're going to say that they don't look alike to you?
 
If you said they look the same, save for the cosmetic differences, I took your word for it. I didn't feel the need to verify it for myself. My only point in that direction was that just because something looks the same on the outside doesn't mean it's the same on the inside. Your arguement was to claim that one was a rip-off of the other merely because they look the same.

And again, with something like a cable tester, which I presume is quite simple, how different CAN they be - even on the inside? All my patch cords look the same, as do my XLR cords, my light bulbs... with minor cosmetic variations among them, of course.

Chris
 
Chris Tondreau said:
If you said they look the same, save for the cosmetic differences, I took your word for it. I didn't feel the need to verify it for myself.
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If you can't even be bothered to look at the pictures that were posted above in this thread, then I can't be bothered to continue this discussion.
 
maestro, I believe the Behringer head-phone amp was made EARLIER than the Samson one. In fact, Behringer as a company 'created' more big cheap companies with similar products. I think Samson might be up a notch above Behringer, but Phonic and Etek most def. aren't!
 
So are you saying that Behringer actually came up with a great design on their own? :eek:
Because in my opinion the HA4600 is the best thing to happen to headphone monitoring on a budget that I've seen (or heard!).
 
Yes, Speeddemon, you're absolutely right. Samson's S-class line is for the most part copies of Behringer units. Take a look at their compressors and compare them to the Behringer compressors (autocom, composer pro etc.) that have been around for quite a few years. The Samson units, too, are made in China; I wouldn't be surprised if they were made in the very same factories.

BTW. The Composer Pro (like many other Behringer units) has hard bypass, which IMHO is a very useful feature, the more expensive Samson compressors don't have that feature. So I guess the Samsons aren't even good Behringer copies.
 
Speeddemon said:
I believe the Behringer head-phone amp was made EARLIER than the Samson one. In fact, Behringer as a company 'created' more big cheap companies with similar products. I think Samson might be up a notch above Behringer, but Phonic and Etek most def. aren't!
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I thought Behringer and Samson/SamAsh had some sort of relationship or "strategic alliance". One of those headphone amps may just be a rebrand of the other, rather than a "rip off". I don't think I've ever tried anything by Etek, but that Phonic stuff is scary. I swear some of it is made of old tin cans.
 
Hey Maestro, yeah, I feel like I'm talking to myself. And don't we look great today?!

@ Jslator: Samson = Sam Ash who used to be Behringer's US distributor as far as I know. I don't think they have an alliance anymore.
 
jslator said:
If you can't even be bothered to look at the pictures that were posted above in this thread, then I can't be bothered to continue this discussion.
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So... let me get this straight, here... You're pissed because I took your word for it that two products essentially LOOK the same except for cosmetic differences, yet didn't take the time to actually verify the accuracy of your statement?? :confused: :rolleyes: :confused:

Whatever....:rolleyes:

Chris
 
Chris,

You make the ridiculous statement there is no need to look at the pictures, because all cable testers look more or less alike. (Fact: they don't!) Then you claim you are offended because you have already "conceded" the point that the Behringer and the Ebtech look alike.

The configuration of the physical characteristics between the two units is way beyond either coincidence or the fact that they both happen to be cable testers. If are going blithely post uninformed opinions, and then refuse to seriously consider any contrary evidence, then it seems you are more interested in creating a controversy than in having any serious discussion.

No one says you are obligated to take anyone's word for anything, or that you should conform to the majority opinion. But when you raise issues and people give you enough respect to take the time to actually steer you towards pertinent evidence, and then you blow them off because you couldn't be bothered...
well, it just shows you have no respect for most of us here.

So if that's the case, why even bother to hang out here? Is the thrill of being annoying that compelling? Unfortunately, you have neither the wit or knowledge of, say, a Sweetnubs, to make your presence around here interesting...

Maybe you should find someplace else to practice boring the hell out of people...
 
Folks calm down, it's just a fucking cable tester. No rocket science inside. In fact, a cable tester is about the most boring thing on earth, or am I missing anything?
 
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