Hybrid systems........at the risk of being banned!

altruistica

Member
If you've been following my threads over the years, you'll probably think I'm mad. I've setup various analogue studios, then ripped them down and sold stuff only to set up analogue studios a few years later. I don't think I'm mad. I've been trying to get the 'best' possible sound I can from my limited (though not tiny) budget. I estimate I've probably spent around £30-40000 on equipment over the last thirty years. I probably still have £20000 in equity in instruments and equipment so it's not been a bottomless pit and I reckon some people blow that amount of money in one year on clothes, cars, holidays so put in perspective it's neither extravagant or frugal.

'The 'best' possible sound I quantify as: the medium that intrudes in the least way in realising the composer's / artist's vision.

This is different for different artists and different projects.

That's why I've now ended up with a hybrid studio.

For me, I need an analogue mixer regardless of what the recording medium is. The tweaks I can make on a mixer ( mainly levels) I find impossible to do on a computer. The sound of the Tascam M3500, like all good mixers, has a sound of its own. I like what comes out of the speakers now, even if it's just an MP3 streamed off the inetrnet, it sounds better for going through the mixer. And I don't have any esoteric listening setup....just a well made Technics amp from the 80s /90s (SU-VX500) and some English 'JPW' Hi-fi speakers I bought about 25 years ago for around £100. I've even re-coned them about six years ago as the rubber around the edges disintegrated with age. It is the mixer that adds something.

So anyway, I now have a 24track 1" tape setup (Tascam MSR24) with the Tascam M3500. I can digitise the tape recordings via an RME UFX USB2/3 pre-amp /convertor which coupled with two Behringer ADA8200 will give me 24 analogue ins and outs to the computer. I'm going to buy a two-track tape machine for mastering to give me the option to mix direct from the tape when needed. But I think above all what my new setup is illustrating to me is this:

A good analogue mixer adds something special to any sound be it digital wav, mp3 or tape

A tape machine allows natural instruments (voices included) to record what seems to be a more dynamic sounding range (although on paper we know this to be impossible) and coupled with tape compression, gives a sense of power often missing on digitally recorded material. The thump of the toms, the air of a kick beater, the twang of a guitar string, all these sounds turn into a flat (dynamically speaking) sound, lacking depth and spread.

So for instance in this next recording, all the sources are digital. A student's granddad passed away and the funeral is being held at which she was going to sing, but her parents felt it might be a bit much for her on the day. She used the singing /piano lesson this week to record this against a backing track which she brought on a pen drive. I used the teaching room to record this using a Tascam US-1200 interface with an Audio Technica 4033 mic, straight into Reason. The backing track was simply imported into Reason.

The next day I pulled the project from the network drive and mixed it on the M3500. All 6 of the tracks (L/R backing track, two vocal, L/R reverb from Reason) came up on the desk from the outs of the RME, then I subbed them to a pair of outputs (Groups 1&2), patched them into 2 inputs of the Behringer ADA8200 (thinking about it I should have used the inputs of the RME which are available on the patchbay) and recorded the 'mix' back into the computer. This is the result:

https://altruistica.bandcamp.com/track/arms-of-an-angel-cover-by-ellie

It always helps when the artist is a natural like this student, but I honestly feel the recording has been taken up a level or two, just by being mixed through the M3500. It sounds like it introduces a touch of class..the difference between what we used to call 'demo' and 'release quality'. It could just be, that so much audio these days, quality wise, is much poorer than it was in the past. When I was setting out, the audio gods were Earth Wind and Fire, Steely Dan, Cat Stevens, The Carpenters etc. You don't have to like any of that music to hear quality recording and producing. It's the kind of difference between The Police's early stuff (which song wise is great but recording wise average) and the stuff Sting went on to do with Hugh Padgham.

In conclusion, I think I've now found a real solution. Having said all of that, the price on the secondhand market for analogue mixers in the UK has reached rock-bottom, so don't be surprised if I've gone and replaced the Tascam with something else. If I do, I'm pretty sure it will be an analogue mixer.

Al
 
Great - glad you are happy. Thanks for sharing. PS, did you have a question? Analogue mixers go for door stop money, so you can keep buying them and enjoying what they do. Mine all went a long time ago, apart from an old Soundcraft that simply goes between the computer interface and the amp - and allows me to hear a few analogue synths I still have. I can't say I like the tone, or that it adds anything, but the master fader comes in handy.
 
Well, I'm afraid I just don't subscribe to any concept of 'best'. Most appropriate could be better? Recording quality has in my view always been getting better. Both in terms of sonic quality, and pushing the boundaries of what is recordable. In the vinyl days, there was little point having a musical style that had lots of bass. Every musical style has a kick off point, when equipment suddenly gave it a nudge - like CD. Until then, nobody really did songs with quiet bits in - apart from maybe a few prog rock bands who masked the background noise in the quiet bits with synths and weirdness!

I realise plenty of people love the retro sound that using analogue kit on digital systems produces - but to me, it's going back to 4:3 TV and VHS quality tapes. I like recordings to have no noise, no distortion and be as uncompromised as they can. The idea of introducing my Soundcraft, nice as it is, into my recording chain just isn't going to happen, and if I am to be totally honest, I cannot hear it adding anything nice, apart from some extra hiss!

So to me - digital is fine, and to me, perhaps best. I'd happily use something analogue, but it would really be for effect, not quality.

I want minimal noise, distortion or colouration. I am quite happy with other people wanting these very features that I hate. Best for you will not be best for me.
 
Ouch! Lots of analog diss and digital praise in the response posts.

You do realize you're in an analog forum, right? :D


The way I see it is that Al loves analog AND embraces digital as well. Nothing the matter with that.:D

I too have entered that shady grey area. Lol

Yeah, gone hybrid, so ban me.

Msr16
Tascam m520 desk (×2)
Allen and Heath ice 16 (for dumping tape tracks straight into the daw)
Focusrite Saffire pro40
Protools 10 and Reaper
Monster 4 rack space custom built PC


Life us good. :D
 
I wouldn't usually post here, but I didn't quite get what he was saying - then he asked it - so I figured an honest reply was perhaps something to chew on. I respect you guys - and your opinions, so I'll not stir the pot. For that, I'm sorry - not my intention to wind things up. R
 
Rob, I respect you and your knowledge.

Miro and I were bantering a bit about being pariahs for being hybrid. Kind of outcasts. :D
The title of this thread expresses that sentiment. :D

Just for the record I'm not in anyway offended by your posting. Just having some fun.

:D
 
I don't think I'm mad.

Yes you are. :p

OK...so before this thread goes off into some analog VS digital pissing contest...I think it needs to be understood that usually when people say "best" or "better", they ARE in fact talking about things from their perspective and their situation...so no need to competitively challenge those comments. I mean, if someone feels cans and shoe string work "best" for them...so be it. :)

I do think that in the HR world everywhere, digital is king, and there's no way to get around that on any level or try and debate that. It's the nature of the beast...it's economical, compact, and sound great these days IF you know what/how to work with it, Many still don't and butcher their audio by using too much digital toys in their ITB rigs. I think if the ITB folks practiced some old-school analog sense, that less is more...their stuff would sound way better, but everyone has their ideas of how to do it, so slather on the processing if you feel it's the "best" way to go.

AFA analog, especially tape recording...it's still alive and well, though involved hybrid setups are more the oddity than the norm in the HR world.....however in the pro world, yes, there is tons of analog gear used every session, and many also still roll tape on a regular basis, and will mix OTB through consoles and outboard gear from their massive Pro Tools rigs.
So again, there is no "one way" to do it, and "best/better" is in the ears of the beholder.

Also...I don't think anyone will get banned for talking hybrid setups. :D
I've been talking it here from the day I joined...and no problems...you just learn to avoid the pissing contest as time goes by, and I truly believe the guys who do work hybrid eventually develop the most "balanced" (for lack of a better word) perspective on the whole analog/digital thing, because they work with both regularly, so those things are just tools...not a beauty contest.

It's all good...just make some music.
 
Hybrid, I use a Tascam M3700 and 2 x MX2424 hard drive machines. I usually mix back through the M3700 and the racks of outboard, so thats what I think is Hybrid.

So all I have taken out is the Tape machine, which I still own and sometimes use as well.

Alan.
 
'The 'best' possible sound I quantify as: the medium that intrudes in the least way in realising the composer's / artist's vision.

This is different for different artists and different projects.

That's why I've now ended up with a hybrid studio.

I thought that definition of what 'best' constitutes for me was plain enough. Also, old mixing consoles, if they haven't ever been serviced are probably now running way out of spec and introducing a level of hiss, pops and wheezes that were never there on release. I digitised my CD library a good few years ago (well 'digitised' is probably the wrong word as it was already digitised....rip would be a better word) and now have it on the network drive which I can access on the analogue desk. What's amazing to hear is how 'bad' some albums from 2000 onwards sound now that I have a good convertor to hear it with. When I say 'bad' I mean what Miro was referring to when saying things were in danger of being over-processed because they could be, the tools are there to be used and abused (I think that's what he was saying).
Anyway, after a decade of experimenting, that's the solution I've found and I'm very happy with it.
Al
 
I know what you mean. I've had a hybrid system for many years now and it works for me. I have an analog approach to a digital system. The heart of my setup is a M-3500 and a HD24 in to a MOTU2408mkII. I record to the HD24 (outboard mic pre's) because it's rock solid. Headphone mixes come from the M-3500 (I can get a headphone mix n seconds on the fly). That goes into the computer via the MOTU where I can edit. Mix time, thru the MOTU back thru the HD24's converters to mix on the M-3500. I can use plugins and real hardware side by side. For me, I can get better mixes this way as opposed to completely ITB. For better or worse, it's how I work now. It "feels" very analog to me.
 
Interesting Mike.......seems a lot more of us are doing this than at first seems. That's a very financially 'economic' way of doing things (HD24 then MOTU 2408MKII...presumably via 3 sets of ADATS). What DAW are you using?

Al
 
The heart of my setup is a M-3500 and a HD24 in to a MOTU2408mkII. I record to the HD24 (outboard mic pre's) because it's rock solid.

Interesting. I've been recording through a 2408MkII and 24i for something like a decade across three computers, two Windows versions and a switch from the 324 card to a 424e card. "Rock solid" perfectly describes them.
 
Still using Cakewalk. I used Vegas for a while when it first came out but drifted back to Cakewalk. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
Not that it sees much use these days but my setup consists of a 24 channel S/craft Spirit Studio desk, Tascam ATR-60 1" 16 trk R2R, a Fostex D160 16 trk h/disk recorder and a variety of outboard pre's and effects. I can synch the two recorders for 30 odd tracks if needed. I only go to the PC via 2 or 4 tracks at mixdown and do final tweeking ITB. I do have an Otari 5050 2 track which I could use as a master deck but haven't got around to it.

Not everyone's cup of tea but it is a fairly intuitive system and works for me.

:cool:
 
Still using Cakewalk. I used Vegas for a while when it first came out but drifted back to Cakewalk. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Which version?

I'm using SONAR 1.3, but only the sequencer bits, and only for composition. For the final recording I use Rosegarden because it can lock to timecode far better.

I have been tempted to look at a newer version of SONAR, but this one has the big advantage that it runs okay in Linux, which the latest version doesn't seem to.
I probably could do everything in Rosegarden at a pinch, but I'm so used to Cakewalk/Sonar's MIDI editing that it's a wrench to use anything else.

Everything is being recorded to tape so it's a late 1980s hybrid system, before DAWs really took off.
 
Hmmm. I can go all analog, hybrid or all digital. I'd offer that going hybrid cant be a bad thing. The hybrid people are using ALL of the tools available.
 
Hybrid

I don't have a lot of money or gear as most all you guys have, but I have also went Hybrid. I don't do a lot of serious stuff, but what I do accomplish the analog and digital just seems to sound better than pure analog or pure digital.
 
The hybrid people are using ALL of the tools available.


This is the key point.
We use all the tools at hand...there is no "analog VS digital" bullshit...you work out your SOP with the gear you have, and you get the most/best out of both formats. :)
 
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