Huge influx of idiots to the forum? or just me?

  • Thread starter Thread starter LemonTree
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last time i saw someone use garage band, they took all these samples and mixed them together. it doesnt take away from clever connections and transitions but it does take away from the process of creating that music which can transition so smoothly. i geuss its an insult to the process if the user takes the samples for granted. which in too many cases is true.

tweaking midi sequences also doesnt strike me as a groundbreaking technique in music either. I admit, i like music made by real instruments played by people with experience. something about the hard work.

im not saying a person cant work for years and work damn hard looping and creating samples, and creating songs that are impressive

but it doesnt strike me as sound originated from means other than speakers do.
 
I feel that I may embarassingly fall into the Buy gear now and ask questions later catagory. :o (This being in terms of actually knowing how to hook it up and use it. )


I've spent the past 3 years lurking, reading, and posting about different items to purchase for my "Studio" ...of the home varity that is,... :)

I do not want to "waste" my money on something that I may find out I never really needed in the first place, or was complete junk that I shouldn't have even considered buying.

I have came up with a pretty good selection of gear (IMO) that will allow me to record my songs and others that will sound "professional" if you will.......provide it I have some decent ears and mixing/mastering skills. Either way I don't think it will be due the lack of "decent" gear.

I litterally just recorded my first vocal track last night.......Holding my SP C1, running it into my VTB-1, and then into my Delta 1010. (Let me jsut say that I have done a lot of 4 track type stuff over the past 25 years.....but this whole PC based thing is really freakin' me out a bit.........just because I'm so lost)

My list of gear that was derrived from lots, and lots, and LOTS of searching, reading, and posting here:

Good PC
Delta 1010
CEP 2.0 / AA 1.5
2 - DBX 163x's
2 - DMP-3's
2 - VTB-1's
Studio Projects - C1, B3, and 2 - B1's
Shure Beta 57 & 58's, SM57s
2 - Senn. e609's (Originals)

Now this list may be pretty inferrior to most of you "Big Guns", but I've heard some pretty impressive recordings here done with a lot less than what I've got, and I feel in time I will be able to produce some "decent" stuff my self.

My down fall now is that I have no idea how to use CEP, but I'm working on that......it's just such a foreign thing to me that I don't even know where to begin. (I'm going to start reading the "Help" section tonight. :( )

I am greatfull to all here who have been kind enough to offer sensible and quality advice over the past few years.......with out them I'm sure I would have spent my very hard earned money very unwisely!

Thanks to all, and keep up the good work!!

Rick
 
The problem here is that a forum like this is not really where people should be getting basic information. They are much better off reading books or getting a buddy to teach him/her the basics. Then when they have the basics figured out they can come here for gear recomendations or particular rips or problem solving. This is not the placce some one should be posting questions like "what does line level mean?"

The problem is that it takes chapters of reading to start to understand the basics and when you post on a forum like this, lots of the info you are getting is from other absoulte beginners.
 
thebrontosaurus said:
last time i saw someone use garage band, they took all these samples and mixed them together. it doesnt take away from clever connections and transitions but it does take away from the process of creating that music which can transition so smoothly. i geuss its an insult to the process if the user takes the samples for granted. which in too many cases is true.

tweaking midi sequences also doesnt strike me as a groundbreaking technique in music either. I admit, i like music made by real instruments played by people with experience. something about the hard work.

im not saying a person cant work for years and work damn hard looping and creating samples, and creating songs that are impressive

but it doesnt strike me as sound originated from means other than speakers do.

well thats just a difference of tastes...when ive heard live versions of sample based songs, I always like the sampled based versions ten times better. I hate live, at least when it comes to hip hop...other forms, different story...I grew up on sample based so thats why i see it different...but just because I prefer samples doesnt mean I talk shit about every other form of music and put the people down who make it, as if theyre not intelligent or creative. The world's in the shape it is now because of most peoples inability to empathize, to put themselves in somebody else shoes. You dont have to like it.

I can get equally wowed by the creative genius of the Beatles or Radiohead or the Red Hot Chili Peppers in the same way as RZA, Dan the automator or El-P...samples are the instruments of this medium...you dont see the guy who made guitars charging aerosmith with being uncreative or untalented because they didnt come up with the guitar sound

anyway it really doesnt matter, just alot of people think this way about hip hop because they dont know anything about it and everybodys got a strong opinion about shit they dont know about
 
thebrontosaurus said:
what im scared of is this little "garage band" outburst bullshit. all those clips fitting together seamlessly. I hear people talking about how their starting up their own "solo projects" by adding vocals over pre-made samples through their laptop mic input then putting it on cd. i hope and (and i dont think i am alone) in saying that this is an insult to real musicians. worst of all, some people actually listen to it and say, "oh jeez, howd you do this? this is really cool!"

ba humbug.

well, if you volunteer to buy all those people instruments, and work their jobs for them while they learn to play, i bet they would happily destroy their copies of garage band.

if you were a real musician, you would shut the f*ck up, and make your music. instead of spitting on people.
those people might start to play an instrument one day, and be far more talented than you are.

everyone needs to come down off their high horses.
 
Altaire said:
well thats just a difference of tastes...when ive heard live versions of sample based songs, I always like the sampled based versions ten times better. I hate live, at least when it comes to hip hop...other forms, different story...I grew up on sample based so thats why i see it different...but just because I prefer samples doesnt mean I talk shit about every other form of music and put the people down who make it, as if theyre not intelligent or creative. The world's in the shape it is now because of most peoples inability to empathize, to put themselves in somebody else shoes. You dont have to like it.

I can get equally wowed by the creative genius of the Beatles or Radiohead or the Red Hot Chili Peppers in the same way as RZA, Dan the automator or El-P...samples are the instruments of this medium...you dont see the guy who made guitars charging aerosmith with being uncreative or untalented because they didnt come up with the guitar sound

anyway it really doesnt matter, just alot of people think this way about hip hop because they dont know anything about it and everybodys got a strong opinion about shit they dont know about

word up man. well spoken.
 
On art...

The Hip-hop/Rap/what-have-you crowd are largely collage artists (in this sense: http://www.collageart.org/links/) as they are combining and mutating found parts to build up a new statement. There is both a talent and art in this that works well where structural repetition is high.

However, music made by musicians is more akin to sculpture or oil painting. These musicians also make creative pallete choices, but the execution of the art requires a dexterity and commitment to theory and practice. The closest the collage artists have in the Hip-hop/Rap/what-have-you set are the turntablists.

Now, whether there is a correlation between the degree to which the collage artists have the discipline to seek out answers to common questions as opposed to that of "normal" musicians - those who have had to sweat it out learning the mechinics of an instrument - well, that is worthy of investigation. Does the ease of technique required for collage generally influence the problem-solving approach adopted by the collagist?

I do think a serious investigation of this will reveal that the collagists are less apt to spend as much time deeply learing the tools of their craft in the technical sense. Their art does not require this discipline and thus, they are likely less apt to undertake serious study of their tools when compared to a guitar virtuoso or top recording engineer. In general, the collagist's heroes are not too known for this prowess. However, the collagists do have some pretty top talent in technical areas (Dr. Dre comes to mind). The Hip Hop collagists tend to call these people "producers."

There will be exceptions to all of this, of course.

On the level of art, I don't think either side has room to over-criticize the other (musicians vs. collagists). However, it is a fool's argument to doubt the technical rigor of musican -> instrument -> recording vs. collagist -> samples/turntable (analog samples?) -> recording.

With art, on the other hand, I don't think we can do too much to argue or proove whether:

recording == art or recording != art





On being a noob

So, I think we should seperate the discussion of artistic merits from learning discipline. Discipline was never a requirement for art, but it IS a requirement for the successful mastery of technical endeavors such as playing a musical instrument and recording/mixing/mastering, etc.

No need to bag on a newbie regardless of his artform, but a lazy ass has it coming, no matter what his art form is. Our real challenge is seperating out ignorance from laziness. What I mean by this is: we all have to start somewhere (hence the newbie forum).

Talent?

Almost a seperate topic, but...

Another question to ask is whether mastery of a technically challenging medium of expression, like a musical instrument, conveys a greater degree of talent than otherwise. Does talent represent the ability to derive the final outcome, or must it include the sum of hours exerted in mastering technique? If talent is special a aptitude, faculty or gift that someone posses, need that talent be the result of long, long hours of struggle?

Culturally, it is sometimes the case where more creedence is afforded to hard work, but not every culture (and it is hard to say the U.S., at least, has a single culture) is going to acknowledge long and hard work as a factor of success.

Who the F*** cares?

The beauty of art, and I think this is the point many of the hip-hoppers make as they accuse some here of "hatin'" is that the masses have seldom cared about the details of art's construction.

The people wanna just get funky with it - how you take them there is your problem.


:-)
 
Basically often Repetitive

darnold said:
This is all the reason why i dont spend much time around here anymore. I try and help as much as i can but im done answering the same questions over and over.

I just skip over the ones that i think are repetitive. Unfortunately thats why i havnt been doing ANY posting for the last 6 months.

Danny

hell..i'm glad you keep posting, the crap on the acoustic/spl was a great help and very,very well put....imo.
maybe repetitve to you, but its fresh to some.
being able to communicate highly technical stuff, to where a lamen can understand it..is quite a skill.

repetitive..hmm :p
try writing a song and re-recording it for 4 weeks and 29 CDr's later it still sounds like ASS
try mixing with headphones for years and 100% recordings sound like ASS with ringing ears.
try cranking the EQ's, pasting effects on and it sounds worse than ASS
try returning mic, after mic, after mic to Guitar Center..and the manager is an ASS
try having to change the volume for each track, every track...and it still sounds like ASS only quieter or louder...

now thats repetitive.
i could go on...but that'd just be repetitve.

so what i'm saying is nothing is never really nothing to someone and if said reptitively it might even sink in or sync out...

or maybe we're just gearheads that can talk this sht consistently!! :eek:
 
Good thread!

Newbies
What people have to realise is that the amount of people who actually know how to record well is a small fraction of a percent of the total population.Let's face it we're geeks. :eek:
Not everybody has the same level of commitment to the craft nor the same expectations of their final product.
The people who make the products we use are more interested in selling them than supporting them and that's why a lot of people end up in forums like these.
Everybody is different,some lurk and look for answers,some post right off the bat without making any effort at all.You could apply this logic to every facet of life,work,family etc.
The thing is there is no way to quantify the amount of people who have helped themselves as we'll never know.If you are sick of answering questions,don't answer them.
I try and help to repay my debt to others and to help others avoid the headaches I went through learning how to do this recording "stuff".

I still suck,but it's a lot less frustrating to be sucky. :o If it were'nt for this forum and others like this I would have smashed or burnt my equipment a long time ago and maybe took up stamp collecting or crochet. :eek:

What I do dislike
Probably a bit of repetition here,but just to maybe build a bit of a consensus...

Pirates,I hate people who come on and ask for help for cracked software."Uh,like I got Cubase,Sonar,Nuendo and a couple of other programs ,how do I get them to work with my soundblaster card?"Ninety nine times out of a hundred when you call them out on it they become indignant and try to reverse the tables as if somehow you'll run with your tail between your legs for having to audacity to call a theif a theif.But I suppose if a person is ignorant enough to proclaim themselves as a warez user all the preaching in the world won't get through their thick skulls.

The people who request answers,but never reply or repay the thoughtfulness of others.Once again this is just a mirror image of society,there are givers and there are takers,in the end your conscience will be your guide.

Rude responses.This comes from both sides of the fence,newbies and seasoned veterans.Some people are more interested in being forum cops rather than helping out.If somebody posts a question in every forum that's not cool,but if they post it in a couplewhere the question may be pertinent,big deal.I don't read every forum and I don't expect everyone else to either.
Gear snobs.Yeah it would be nice if we could all have $$$ preamps,mics and all that other cool $tuff,but this is a home recording site.Some of us actually have lives other than recording,bills to pay etc.If a person has unrealistic expectations of their equipment,give them a perspective but also help them get the most out of what they've got.That's what this forum is all about. :cool:
Anti spam police.People have got to make their own judgements no different than any other phase of life.In the end is the person who shouts the loudest the one who's right? :confused:

Hip Hop,sampling.
People used to say that Elvis and the Beatles weren't music,but today they are benchmarks.The same goes for movies,comedians etc.I personally don't care for hip hop,but I don't like raw onions either.
Some of us play every instrument,write,record and master our own music.Samplers only do a small part of a completed(?) project.No different than sub contracting.Give a hundred different people the same tools and you'll probably get a hundred different results.There does seem to be a certain paint by numbers aspect to some of these programs but if you can sell it,than more power to you.
Talent and success don't always follow the same path and beauty is in the ear of the beholder.I wonder if we could dig up Beetoven,Mozart and some of those other funky classical guys if they would embrace the chance to use the technological marvels of today.

I've got to say the "ur 2 cool 2 b 4 real"drives me nuts and I consider it to be driven by laziness.I'm typing this whole damn reply out with two fingers and there are countless multilingual users on this board who use nearly flawless English when replying.
 
Music is what you make it out to be.

I went to a friends show recently. He asked if I liked the new riffs in his one song. The lady I was with, broke out in tears when she heard the lyrics to his song. I noticed that a number of people went to get a beer when he played his new tune. So we all noticed something different from the same song. Which is the truth about the song?

Basically, I think that Rap is crap, the guy who plays the record machine is laughable talent, country music is depressing crap that is rap to a different beat, and the guy that can play a thousand notes in a second but can't hold a beat is just try to show how big his dick is. So should I respond to any of these posts, No.

Although I will say that the "ur 2 cool 2 b 4 real" drives me nuts too, and if you children that use it want any help from me, use english.
 
noisedude said:
What we're seeing here is a natural extension of that - it's too easy to ask questions compared to actually trying to find something out for yourself.
You hit the nail right on the head!
 
juststartingout said:
Music is what you make it out to be.


Basically, I think that Rap is crap, the guy who plays the record machine is laughable talent, country music is depressing crap that is rap to a different beat, and the guy that can play a thousand notes in a second but can't hold a beat is just try to show how big his dick is. So should I respond to any of these posts, No.
QUOTE]
same thing...if it takes no talent lemme see you make a hit album
 
ahuimanu said:
On art...

The Hip-hop/Rap/what-have-you crowd are largely collage artists (in this sense: http://www.collageart.org/links/) as they are combining and mutating found parts to build up a new statement. There is both a talent and art in this that works well where structural repetition is high.

However, music made by musicians is more akin to sculpture or oil painting. These musicians also make creative pallete choices, but the execution of the art requires a dexterity and commitment to theory and practice. The closest the collage artists have in the Hip-hop/Rap/what-have-you set are the turntablists.

Now, whether there is a correlation between the degree to which the collage artists have the discipline to seek out answers to common questions as opposed to that of "normal" musicians - those who have had to sweat it out learning the mechinics of an instrument - well, that is worthy of investigation. Does the ease of technique required for collage generally influence the problem-solving approach adopted by the collagist?

I do think a serious investigation of this will reveal that the collagists are less apt to spend as much time deeply learing the tools of their craft in the technical sense. Their art does not require this discipline and thus, they are likely less apt to undertake serious study of their tools when compared to a guitar virtuoso or top recording engineer. In general, the collagist's heroes are not too known for this prowess. However, the collagists do have some pretty top talent in technical areas (Dr. Dre comes to mind). The Hip Hop collagists tend to call these people "producers."

There will be exceptions to all of this, of course.

On the level of art, I don't think either side has room to over-criticize the other (musicians vs. collagists). However, it is a fool's argument to doubt the technical rigor of musican -> instrument -> recording vs. collagist -> samples/turntable (analog samples?) -> recording.

With art, on the other hand, I don't think we can do too much to argue or proove whether:

recording == art or recording != art

I'm sorry but this is bullshit, on multiple levels.

First off, everybody is a "collagist" whatever that means. how many "virtusos" take licks straight from yngwie or van halen?? how is that any different? every musician steals or copys or appropriates or what have you to a certain degree. what you are referring to as "collage" music is, IMO, the most current reporesentation of what has happened all along, based on a newer technology. In a real sense, it is a representation of our society, as it is, today (where data is freely available to be copied); which is what art is all about.

as to technical ability;

you've obviously never seen a turntablist in action, or even tried it. the skill required to take a record and chop new beats out of it as it is playing is so difficult that only a handfull of people on this earth can pull it off. way fewer than can pull off yngwie licks. I could practice with turntables for years and never come close to the skill of say, dj shadow.
 
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Krazy8 said:
ii'm a newbie, but the starter of this thread is a hipocrate (excuse the spelling), he yells about newbies posting all over, then post this bullshit topic in the mixing/mastering section? wtf is that about. i hate selfish people, im a newbie, but i share the little that i know. just because you want to act like youre some big ass star and you have the ultimate knowledge, don't try to put down those who are trying to learn.. don't be asses about people showing the least bit of initiative in wanting to gain knowledge from each other...


The reason I posted in THIS forum was, on that particular day this forum was full of newbie questions NOT related to mixing or mastering. That said, it doesn't just apply to this forum, it's happening all over the board.

I don't think I'm a selfish person...if you wanna bring up my profile and search through all my posts you'll see MOST are aimed at helping out peoples problems that I've had experience with.

As for acting like a big ass star....... from a bedroom studio..... I think not

This thread has brought forward a lot of oppinions, and we're all allowed one of our own. I just find it interesting reading the views and the counter views. There's nothing bad in this thread. The whole hiphop thing is all a bit tongue in cheek as far as I can see, it's like the old drummer jokes....what do you say when the drummer turns up>?......"thanks for the pizza" and tip him a dollar...it's not degrading or down putting

If nobody noticed yet this whole thing was sparked off by one new poster whom, if you haven't already worked it out will remain annonymous (sp?). It's been a good little exercise and nobody died in the process. If anything, I've found the Newbie form could gain from a sticky post informing newcomers how to use the search feature to their advantage, that's the bottom line...so, fingers crossed we got some good out of this

Alec
 
"...the value of value."

God bless you Mr. Glen.
That sums up what is wrong with EVERYTHING today. No one remembers the value of value!


"I want it right now! There must be a plug-in for it for free around here somewhere!"
 
guido #2 said:
Mr. Glen.
Aw, you don't have to call me "Mr." This wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that I'm from White Sox country, would it Mr. Guido from Cleveland? :D

(It's close enough where I'm calling you "Mr." too. ;) )

G.
 
Naaawww. I'm not a stck and ball fan
NASCAR's where it's at for me :)

But you DID hit the nail on the head!
 
LemonTree said:
I think a 10 post minimum on the newbie forum would be a good thing...
I think that's total bull. I'm new to this forum, but not really new to making music, although I wouldn't call myself an "expert". However, if you check my posts, almost all of them have been replies to others, trying to help them out. If there was some forced quota implemented, it would most likely just end up turning people off.

In general, I find that whole sneering at the newbs attitude quite childish. I appreciate the fact that it gets tiring to answer those, specially when they're repeated ad infinitum (I've been guilty of getting grumpy from time to time myself, although subsequently I have apologised for it). In those cases, the forum veterans still have an advantage--memory of threads. Instead of answering it yet again, you can point them to those threads where the question has been asked and answered. And if you don't feel like answering, leave it alone. You should also remember that some of these posters are actually teenage kids, who should be encouraged rather than called "hey you dumbass". I say it's better that they do music, come here and ask naive questions, then go out and shoot people.

If you're tired of those newb questions, then why don't you start a discussion on some advanced topic, and see where it goes? I think it would be a lot more positive way of elevating the quality of the forums, and in general be a win-win situation as everyone would learn something... much better than whining about the newbs I say.

To they guy that said that he doesn't like hip-hop and doesn't think he should help people that make it so he doesn't contribute to the spread of "bad music"... well, whatever. I don't particularly care for hip-hop either, but the fact is a lot of genres influence one another, directly or indirectly, be it in the use of engineering techniques, sounds or whatever. So, by helping those become better at what they do, you actually help the entire music community, which in the long run will also help whatever genre you're into. Stop being so damn narrowminded.

/rant off.
 
The problem is that all too often, a newbie doesn't understand the quality of the advice he is getting, the source, or refuses to accept or challenges the answer. Some people get irate when they get an honest answer that they don't want to hear.

My main hangout (aside from my own forums) is at rec.audio.pro, a newsgroup where you'll find a lot of professional recording engineers. I define a "pro" as someone whose albums I probably bought and those albums are now considered classics.

Engineers like George Massenburg, Bob Olhsson, Mike Clark, Mark Linett, Rail Rogut, and Terry Manning were regular contributors to rec.audio.pro. (There's a place called "allmusic.com" where you can enter their names and see their credits.)

Just like homerecording, newbies would find the forum, and post questions. These are some of the actual exchanges I've seen:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Best Guitar Recording Gear

A newbie wanted to know what the best anp simulator was, and George Massenburg said it would be best to use an amplifier and mic it. George added the following note:

"uh, a couple of more things, maybe.

put the guitar amp on a crate or chair or road case or something else to get it off of the floor a bit. make the mic a 57 or 58. get down on your knees and stick one ear in front of the amp while the musician is playing; if it's too loud, put a finger in your ear - do NOT ask the musician to turn down. remembering what kinda sound you're looking for, move your head around the
front of the amp listening for the exact spot where the sound is 'best'.
george massenburg"

Here's the answer George got from the poster:

"Thanks for that useless advice! I'm surprised at what generous contributions can be found in this forum."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Motown Sound

Another time, some newbie was telling us all how to get that old Motown sound (by using a ton of compressors), when Bob Olhsson replied, "Sorry, Barry Gordy hated compressors."

The newbie continued to defend his statement, slammed Bob's answer, and ended by saying he had a right to his opinion of how it was done, and everybody's opinion was just that, an opinion.

And then, he closed by asking "and what makes your opinion so much better than mine?".

Bob quietly answered, "I was the Motown engineer from 1965 to 1972".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The point is (for me anyway) that after a while, you get tired of being blasted over and over for trying to help people that simply don't want to listen to your advice. They just want you to confirm how great their ideas are.

I've had new people argue with me over old Acoustic amps, JBL MI speakers, and dozens of other products or recordings I've been involved with. I try not to argue or defend myself any more. It usually doesn't do any good.

Ty Ford and I disagree over Chinese mics in general; Scott Dorsey and I disagree over the Coles 4038 ribbon mic; Chessrock and I disagree over the ECM8000, and Fletcher and I disagree over the Drawmer 1960 and the Millinia Media stuff, but those are cool disagreements. We each bring solid arguments to the discussion, and in the end, it boils down to preferences in how we work.

The bottom line is that I try to consider what is the best use of my time. If some newbie doesn't believe what I'm telling them, why continue the discussion? Eventually they'll find out either they were wrong, or they'll figure out how to make things work for their needs.

"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
 
Not all "newbies" are inexperienced in the recording field. I recorded in "major" studios for over 20 years before taking a "hiatus" from my musical career for about 8 years. Once I decided to forget a career in music, I began to enjoy the idea of recording as a "hobby". A few things had changed since my day, like PC recording, and there is now a much wider range of equipment available to the home recording enthusiast. So, naturally I had a few questions, and once in awhile a few answers to offer. I found this site to be indispensable. Not only as a source of information, but also as a place to "hang" with others that share my interest in recording, and engage in some topic and debate. So, not all "newbies" are new to recording, and limiting them to posting only in the newbie section would be unfair judgment. Maybe the better answer is to have an "advanced" section where the people that feel they are above helping people that are newer to this could hang out with others that have forgotten what it was like when they started out, due to the fact that their mind is now full of SO MUCH information and experience. The more "advanced" questions would not get lost in a mix of stupid questions (which I was always taught there was no such thing as a stupid question). Then the people here would know where to go when they come here to help us less experienced, "lower class", simple minded newbies that make up the other 90% of the people here.
 
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