How to turn your old stereo speakers into the best sounding monitors you ever heard!

[MrZekeMan]

Zeke:
You're getting way too emotional over these posts. I'm laughing my ass off at you people, certainly not busting a vein. I thought I'd let you know that the Police broke up a long long time ago. And as for Rush - I think Geddy Lee is ready for the Klezmer band, don't you? Now who's the putz?

OH MY GOD!!! The Police broke up????

Sigh... I don't know if I can go on.

Come on, you disappoint me BJ. Is this best you can come up with to defend your statements about Canada?

Morin Heights has also done work for Shania Twain and Queensryche. The staff at the studio even sang back ground vocals on several of Queensryche's songs.

Your bigoted remarks about Canucks don't hold any water at all with me. Your pretty much wasting your time. You can go ahead and feel that way if you want. I don't really give a rip.

I was just making a feeble attempt to point out one line of evidence that your statements are ridiculous and laughable. It's really not up to me to defend the honor of Canada and her musical culture. I just mentioned 1 studio out of many.

Oh, by the way. I like Geddy Lee. I think he's got plenty of life left in him.

Oh yes, one more thing. You saying I'm getting emotional over these posts, doesn't mean I'm getting emotional over these posts. Out of this whole thread, you are the one who has shown yourself to be the most ridiculous. Even the newbie you were so righteously defending decided to distance himself from you. LOL

 

[MrZekeMan]

ZekeMan: Just for the record - I'm 29 years old. For the rest of your comments - you are about as right as you were about my age... Half-way...

Oops, my mistake. I apologize

I'm curious, in what way did you deem my comments only "Half-way" right. I really thought they were helpful. If I was wrong, point it out to me. I like to practice what I preach. I'm open to correction. Quote the areas that were only half-right, and explain to me the errors of my ways. If you convince me, I'll change my opinion.

To Everyone Here: My point is just this - Do you have to be an asshole just because you think you know better? If you try to correct someone and in the same time say that this person is a complete idiot...

Boray,

Go back and read this thread from the beginning. I don't think you read the same thread that I read. I never heard one single person say you were a complete idiot.

The beginning of this thread was exactly like a thousand other threads on this BBS. Roel, Blue Bear and others tried to offer you some good advice. YOU caused all these problems. You couldn't accept correction, and you kept it going until it escalated. Blue Bear never said a cross word until the 22nd post, and that was only in reataliation to some wanker.

If you are nice about it and gently explain your point, the point will more likely be taken. And this is what I think you all should learn from this thread... So can you take this correction from me?

Sure, I'll accept your correction. As far as I personally am concerned, If I was not gentle enough in explaining my points to you, I apologize.

But I think you serve yourself better, by growing a little thicker skin. Unfortunately, the world you live in will never be as mannerly and considerate as you desire it to be. And, if you continue to go about your business while demanding that it be so, you will become, or continue to be, dysfunctional in it.

 

[Boray]

Re: Re: Re: eq

Another fine post contributing greatly to this discussion. Wannabe? Do you really think it's the coolest thing in the world to be a rude ego in this club of internal admiration? Well, let me tell you - it's not. To outsiders you are just so pathetic...

/Anders

Ok, I appologize for that post. When looking back I think I was a bit out of line there, even if I had a point, it was not for me to say... So sorry about that. The thing is that I just had received three or four really long emails about you guys. Who you are, what you do and how you usually act together (with some examples included), simply saying that you were a bunch of assholes... Those emails influenced me (of course) and that made me write that post.

But I still belive that my method is a good one, at least for me.
Now, let me try to defend myself against the main arguments against my method. You don't have to answer if you don't like, but here are my thoughts:

1. EQ induces phase problems.
From what I have heard, this is mostly related to analog EQing and not to digital EQing. If digital EQing still induces artifacts and phase problems, then these are minor to the improvements. At least this is what I experiance when listening and comparing. If I just turn the EQ off from time to time or take my mix to listen on different systems, I can't see any problem with that.

2. If you move your head away from that spot, your EQ tuning will mean nothing.
This is exactly the same on any monitors or speakers. If you move your head to another location, it will sound differently. The trick is to find the right spot when you do the EQ tuning and to have really good dry acoustics in the room.

3. You have never listened to real monitors, so you know nothing.
I have listened to decent active monitors almost every day for over a year when I worked at a multimedia company.

4. You are a "newbie", so you know nothing!
That's more of an attitude problem than an argument. If you can't accept other peoples opinions if they don't agree with you, then I think you should do something other than hanging around a BBS all day long, preferably something that doesn't induce human contact.

I wonder why I even try.... I know your minds were set the second you saw the topic of my post...

Well, have fun tearing my arguments apart!

/Anders

 

[esactun]

Re: Re: Re: Re: eq

1. EQ induces phase problems.
From what I have heard, this is mostly related to analog EQing and not to digital EQing. If digital EQing still induces artifacts and phase problems, then these are minor to the improvements. At least this is what I experiance when listening and comparing. If I just turn the EQ off from time to time or take my mix to listen on different systems, I can't see any problem with that.

Digital EQ has its artifacts also. The amount of artifacts seems to depend on the quality of the EQ box or plugin, and how much is being cut or boosted. I can wring all sorts of nasty phase artifacts out my Sonic Foundry plugs if I abuse them.

Bearing in mind that I'm not a pro (nor am I picking fights): IMHO, if drastic EQing is improving your speaker's sound, then could it be that your speakers/monitors were really bad-sounding to start with? Drastic EQ really does butcher things.

4. You are a "newbie", so you know nothing!
That's more of an attitude problem than an argument. If you can't accept other peoples opinions if they don't agree with you, then I think you should do something other than hanging around a BBS all day long, preferably something that doesn't induce human contact

You're right-on here! There are 1000-post "newbies" here and any pros who sign up start with a zero post count (and "newbie" status) just like everyone else....
Of course, there are also folks like Blue Bear, who's a 3000+ post pro, and Sonusman, who can be quite crusty himself! Your ego may take a beating, but they'll tell you the truth.


I'm glad you're sticking around, despite the flaming. Someone before me put it best: "This is a full-contact BBS." It takes a little getting used to if you've been to more "polite" boards... but here one also doesn't have to ponder their every word for fear of saying "fuck!" (or "fuck you," depending on who you're replying to )

 

[Boray]

MrZekeMan, ok, as you asked for my comments...

>Well, this might be part of the problem. Your Post probably
>could have been worded better. You gave the IMPRESSION
>that you were saying these EQ'd old stereo speakers would
>be a better monitoring solution than good studio monitors.
>And you have to remember. Just because someone
>doesn't have, or can't afford decent montors, it doesn't
>mean they haven't HEARD good monitors.

You are correct, but if you just read the second line in the original post: "...or a bit more realistic: Making your speakers (or monitors) to sound much, much, much better!". I think people got blinded by the topic itself.

>Okay, here's another problem identified. These forums are
>full of pros. So is your vs-planet. Go and read the recent
>thread there where some of the planeteers introduced
>themselves and told a little bit about their history. There's
>pros on all these sites. THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM USEFUL.

I know there are pros on both sites, but I have never seen
a pro in this particular VS forum before. It's mainly newbies asking newbie questions about their just bought second hand VS880EX... And they probably use stereo speakers as monitors. All you who critisized my EQ method don't usually hang around in this particular forum, right? So how could I know that all you guys suddenly would stomp in here?

>Otherwise they would be pretty much useless. They would
>be a bunch of newbies steering each other in the wrong
>direction. doing things like recommending home stereo
>speakers as monitors.

Don't they have minds to think with? "Newbies" are not
stupid, they can actually think!

>You're not helping yourself out here. Learn to take
>correction. It'll help you out as you learn to record.

Then you have to convince me first.

>You're overly sensitive. Learn to deal with being shot
>down when you have a stupid idea, or when you say
>something stupid. If it hurts your feelings, ignore it and
>go on, and count yourself lucky for having been corrected,
>even if it was a little painful.

I think I was rather calm compared to some others.

>On the other hand, you could keep defending a stupid
>idea, and that helps neither you or anyone else.

And if I don't think it's stupid? Stupid must be if you without
any thoughts take the words of another person (that you don't
even know) for truth... I mean.. A guy having a demo studio
recording his friends demos, wow! He must know everything!

>You have a convoluted view of the worth of newbies.
>While what you say is true in principle, in actual practice
>amateurs have very very very little of benefit to offer
>experienced engineers.

Yes, but not many here are much more experianced than I am, what would they do on a HOME RECORDING bbs otherwise?

>Whether you want to admit it or not, you've been helped
>here. It might not have been in the tender manner you
>would have preferred, but you've been helped. The planet
>is a great resource as well. I hope nobody there gave
>your stereo speaker suggestion any affirmation. If they
>did, then you got better direction from this site.

There was both negative and positive responses on VSPlanet. That's probably a more realistic response as I also got that positive response anonymously from someone here that didn't care (or dare) to discuss this with you...

>Try not to take yourself so seriously, and continue to learn.

Ok! The same to everyone else here to.

>And oh yea, STAY IN SCHOOL!!!

What school would that be? I have studied computes sience at the university... Is that what you mean?

That was my comments... as you asked for them...

/Anders

 

[Boray]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: eq

IMHO, if drastic EQing is improving your speaker's sound, then could it be that your speakers/monitors were really bad-sounding to start with?

That could be it. Thanks for your input!

/Anders

 

[MrZekeMan]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: eq

Someone before me put it best: "This is a full-contact BBS." It takes a little getting used to if you've been to more "polite" boards...

Thank you esactun, that was some of my work.

 

[MrZekeMan]

MrZekeMan, ok, as you asked for my comments...

Well, I think your attempt to prove that what I said was only "Half-right" was extremely feeble at best. If I saw any validity to any of these points whatsoever, I would acquiesce. Maybe the only thing I can see any validity in was me thinking you were about 15.

I could go back and respond to all of your posts one at a time and pick them apart, but I've grown tired of you. You are a knot head, and you aren't going to concede.

Zekeman doesn't claim to be a pro but here is what he recommends:

If you are remotely interested in recording and mixing something that sounds decent, and translates well, go and buy yourself some STUDIO MONITORS. There are plenty out there that are VERY cheap.

There is no other solution. Mixing on stereo speakers is not a solution. Mixing through studio headphones is not a solution. The solution to the studio monitor dilemma, is to buy some studio monitors.

All the ones who have tried to dispell this silly idea of using eq'd stereo speakers have done so because they've tried the work-arounds and they realize that INFERIOR results are what will be delivered.

If you are working with some type of ludicrous set-up like this, or trying to mix through cans, you are in for a wonderful eye opening experience when you first mix through some decent monitors. Suddenly all the things you've been struggling and pulling your hair out over will fall right into place, because you will be using the right TOOL for the job.

Zeke

 

[*BG]

Krackit:
Actually I am impressed with the Ted Nugent session you described. Saving the session by fixing the console channel when you weren't hired yet says alot for your ability and being able to think on your feet. It sounds like you've done some good things in the field.
And from what I gather, Ted Nugent can be quite difficult.
(Not to drop names again, but I did alot of work at Quadradial Studios in Miami as a session guitarist/vocalist for owner Bob Ingria - Ted recorded the Cat Scratch Fever album there - it's safe to say he's difficult.
Kudos to you for saving the session.

 

[*BG]

Zeke:
The name is BG my little girly girl - getting all emotional, aren't you?
I don't doubt that Moron Heights recorded Shania Twain. The problem is that she was going nowhere until she met Mutt Lange.
The Nashville recordings put her on the map, not Moron Heights as you've described.

Queensryche? - Excuse me while I yawn.

New York and the Long Island area simply have alot more going on recording wise. I certainly wasn't slamming Canada and Ottawa and Canadians in general.

Let me set you straight very quickly about this. I visit Canada several times a year, from Vancouver to New Foundland. I occasionally gig in Toronto and Montreal. I have a love for Canada that I'm sure equals that of any proud Canadian. While in Quebec City I purchased several pieces of art by Canadian artist Claude Theberge. I don't think he can be touched as an artist in my opinion. I walked by a club and sat in with a three piece band there. They were some of the best musicians I'd ever heard, period. I even have a wooden Canadian mountie that sits atop one of my Yamaha NS10's.
If I weren't living in the US, I'd be living in Canada - trust me.
I've always thought Canadians were gracious people - one of the reasons why I enjoy going there so much.

The exceptions are the halfwits like Blue Bear and apparently yourself. Canada has alot of great music - I'm very familiar with the talent of Canadian artists. You two just don't rate here, sorry. You're not assholes because you're Canadian - you're assholes because you're assholes.

 

[MrZekeMan]

deleted

 

[MrZekeMan]

Zeke:
The name is BG my little girly girl - getting all emotional, aren't you?

Getting emotional because I typed your screen name wrong? Please explain.

This is really kind of funny. Every since I called attention to you getting all emotional and almost busting a vein in your forehead, you've accused me of being emotional in every post. Wassup wid dat Stimpy?

I don't doubt that Moron Heights recorded Shania Twain. The problem is that she was going nowhere until she met Mutt Lange.
The Nashville recordings put her on the map, not Moron Heights as you've described.

Queensryche? - Excuse me while I yawn.

Three points here puddin'

A) I never said they recorded Shania Twain.

B) I never said she was talented

C) Who gives a rip if Queensryche bores you. I like 'em.

I certainly wasn't slamming Canada and Ottawa and Canadians in general.

Let me set you straight very quickly about this. I visit Canada several times a year, from Vancouver to New Foundland. I occasionally gig in Toronto and Montreal. I have a love for Canada that I'm sure equals that of any proud Canadian. While in Quebec City I purchased several pieces of art by Canadian artist Claude Theberge. I don't think he can be touched as an artist in my opinion. I walked by a club and sat in with a three piece band there. They were some of the best musicians I'd ever heard, period. I even have a wooden Canadian mountie that sits atop one of my Yamaha NS10's.
If I weren't living in the US, I'd be living in Canada - trust me.
I've always thought Canadians were gracious people - one of the reasons why I enjoy going there so much.

This is where it gets really fun for me.

How do you reconcile those statements with these statements?

To Blue Bear:
The fact that you run a studio in Ottawa immediately discounts you from any serious studio dealings...

This is my favorite part coming up, the gratuitous bragging and boasting about his own accomplishments that shows him to be a real winner:

I grew up in studios such as Criteria (now the Hit Factory) in Miami in the 70's and played on several hit records from the time I was eighteen. Your attitude towards Boray demonstrates that you're a pompous ass. Please tell me what you've done musically, if anything.

...that sits atop one of my Yamaha NS10's.

HA HA HA... Tee hee hee!!

No wonder this guy likes the idea of using eq'd home stereo speakers for monitors

The exceptions are the halfwits like Blue Bear and apparently yourself. Canada has alot of great music - I'm very familiar with the talent of Canadian artists. You two just don't rate here, sorry. You're not assholes because you're Canadian - you're assholes because you're assholes.

Try to keep up BG. Bluebear is from Canada, I'm from Arkansas. You might want to take some notes so you can keep everything straight in your head. Whatever you do, try to do it well. If your gonna be a Troll, try to keep up with the conversation, and be an adequate Troll.

 

[Boray]

Well, I think your attempt to prove that what I said was only "Half-right" was extremely feeble at best. If I saw any validity to any of these points whatsoever, I would acquiesce. Maybe the only thing I can see any validity in was me thinking you were about 15.

I didn't try to prove anything, I just gave you my comments and my opinions.

I could go back and respond to all of your posts one at a time and pick them apart, but I've grown tired of you. You are a knot head, and you aren't going to concede.

Concede to what? I have already said that real monitors would be better than using stereo speakers. All I've said about EQd speakers is that my EQ-tuned speakers are better than my un-EQd speakers. Have you listened to my speakers before the EQing? NO. Have I listened to my speakers before the EQing? YES. Have you listened to my speakers after the EQing? NO. Have I listened to my speakers after the EQing? YES. Now, who is the better judge to decide if the EQing of MY speakers was an improvement? YOU apparently? What logic does that follow?

Zekeman doesn't claim to be a pro but here is what he recommends:

If you are remotely interested in recording and mixing something that sounds decent, and translates well, go and buy yourself some STUDIO MONITORS. There are plenty out there that are VERY cheap..

VERY cheap monitors are not VERY good. Someone at the planet used to mix on stereo speakers, but decided to buy some cheap Alesis monitors (Alesis One or something) when his stereo went dead. He thought the monitors sounded like crap and considered to buy some new stereo speakers instead. But he ended up buying a pair of lot more expensive Event monitors which he was satisfied with.... What's the conclusion to this? Some stereo speakers CAN sound better than cheap monitors.... If un-EQd speakers are better to mix on is another question.

If you are working with some type of ludicrous set-up like this, or trying to mix through cans, you are in for a wonderful eye opening experience when you first mix through some decent monitors. Suddenly all the things you've been struggling and pulling your hair out over will fall right into place, because you will be using the right TOOL for the job...

Exactly that happened when I EQ tuned my speakers. Everything sounds more detailed, more natural, more clear. You can hear everything and it's not muddy any longer. All bass tones that has the same volume, now also sounds to have the same volume, etc. etc...

I know that this is hard to coprehend for you pro-wannabes just because it's the common opinion that you need a pair of decent monitors to mix. You don't really. I (and many with me) have made some pretty good mixes on stereo speakers...

The unskilful blames his tools, but the skilful can make wonders with anything. (just to quote myself)...

If you really want to change my mind, then you have to come up with something better than just saying "this is not right, you should do like this".

If you for example now are so shure that the digital 10-band EQ of the VS induces noticeable artifacts in the sound, then give me a method of how I can detect this!

Not that I think it would be that big deal if it did leave some artefacts... I mean, these artefacts would in no way leave marks in the final mix if I listen on it on different systems and compare.

Most people use EQ all the time (except for some strange "never-EQ" people), and all that EQing goes into the final mix without anyone complainting, so what's the difference? Except that this EQ doesn't go into the final mix and that I at any moment can turn off the EQ to compare.....

So, Zekeman, can you accept that I have a different oppinion than you, or will you still act like BlueBear and call me a knot head? Aren't you a knot head just as well when you persistantly argue for your point of view?

If you like, you can listen to the tune "Mighty Sight" at http://mp3.com/boray .It's mixed on my stereo speakers even before I made the EQ tuning... So is it possible to make decent mixes on stereo speakers? I think so. It's recorded on a VS840EX in 2000 and remixed on a VS1680 in 2002. Unfortually I had to record it through my old Soundblaster16 card when I made the mp3...

/Anders

 

[MrZekeMan]

So, Zekeman, can you accept that I have a different oppinion than you, or will you still act like BlueBear and call me a knot head? Aren't you a knot head just as well when you persistantly argue for your point of view?

Your right. With this last post of yours I've finally seen the error of my ways.

I think you've got a stellar set up there. I think you should grab on to that sucker like a dog on a bone, and never let go.

You're like some kind of audio genious. You've changed the whole face of audio as we know it. Dang you're inventive. You should be held up on a pedestal.

It's an honor to know you,
Taylor

 

[Boray]

Your right. With this last post of yours I've finally seen the error of my ways.

I think you've got a stellar set up there. I think you should grab on to that sucker like a dog on a bone, and never let go.

You're like some kind of audio genious. You've changed the whole face of audio as we know it. Dang you're inventive. You should be held up on a pedestal.

It's an honor to know you,
Taylor

You finally understood that! Great for you!

/Anders

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

The cool thing about the ignore feature is that although I hear an-idiot-known-as-*BG knocking, he can't come in!

 

[TexRoadkill]

Instead of wasting space defending the oldest 'monitor' trick in the book why dont some of you dickheads go help all the people with specific VS problems here. I dont see one fuckin post from any of you newbie experts helping anybody. Did you just come over here to show us how big your dick is or are you actually here to contribute?

I would help them but I only own a VM mixer and not a VS.

 

[DarthFaders]

KILL THIS THREAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Boray]

Instead of wasting space defending the oldest 'monitor' trick in the book why dont some of you dickheads go help all the people with specific VS problems here. I dont see one fuckin post from any of you newbie experts helping anybody. Did you just come over here to show us how big your dick is or are you actually here to contribute?

I would help them but I only own a VM mixer and not a VS.

If you go back half a year or something, you will see that I actually have helped some people here. But if they really want help, they should not post their questions here, just because there are no VS experts hanging around here. Try www.vsplanet.com and you will have an answer within a day at most...

/Anders

 

[Boray]

You gave the IMPRESSION that you were saying these EQ'd old stereo speakers would be a better monitoring solution than good studio monitors.

No I didn't. The topic name was to draw attention to the post (which it did apparently). If someone had cared to even read the first line after the topic ("...or a bit more realistic: Making your speakers (or monitors) to sound much, much, much better!"), or even better, to read the whole original thread (which I think anyone should do before commenting on it), then they would understand that this was just a suggestion on how to improve the performance of your existing speakers/monitors without any additional equipment except from what you already have. I even suggested that if you liked to continue to mix on your speakers/monitors as you are used to, you could use this EQ effect patch as a compliment to try your mix on from time to time, just like Roland's speaker simulations. I have never said that using stereo speakers for monitors is better than using real monitors.

I could go back and respond to all of your posts one at a time and pick them apart, but I've grown tired of you. You are a knot head, and you aren't going to concede.

---

Your right. With this last post of yours I've finally seen the error of my ways.

I think you've got a stellar set up there. I think you should grab on to that sucker like a dog on a bone, and never let go.

You're like some kind of audio genious. You've changed the whole face of audio as we know it. Dang you're inventive. You should be held up on a pedestal.

It's an honor to know you,
Taylor

The words of a bad loser that has no arguments left. You're overly sensitive. I think you serve yourself better, by growing a little thicker skin. (That's your own words by the way). You have not provided one single agrument against my method other than repeating what you have heard from others around here (that not even are real arguments). Have you any experiance with this whatsoever?

I think it's strange that people around here are so quick to judge people that you don't know and people that doesn't agree with you. I think you should try to keep a more open mind. Have you even considered that my method even could be better than the white noise method? Let me answer for you - No you haven't. You are closeminded and live in a word where everything is black and white. Someone not thinking your way is stupid and you honestly believe that you know better than him. Knowledge is relative. What we know to be truth today can be false tomorrow. Science shows that all the time. Sometimes it seem like scientists just guess and then hold their assumption as truth until they are proven otherwise.

To keep an open mind and think for yourself instead of blindly follow others will make you to learn more in the long run, and even maybe let you come up with an idea or two of your own.

Well, it has been an interesting experiance to talk with you. Good luck with your recording and with your life in general.

Kind Regards,
Anders Persson
http://listen.to/boray