how many mics do I need for drums?

[RAK]

what kind of stereo image (and therefore panning) do you really have on a 4-piece kit anyway?

I guess it would depend on how far apart you put your OHs and/or Room Mics.

 

[mrface2112]

I guess it would depend on how far apart you put your OHs and/or Room Mics.

LOL

but think about it.....when you're standing 6ft away in front of a kit, how much L/R is there between the rack tom and the floor tom? do you really need to have the rack tom panned hard L and the floor tom panned hard R?

or at least, when compared to a 12 piece kit with rack toms 6-16in in size?


cheers,
wade

 

[RAK]

LOL

but think about it.....when you're standing 6ft away in front of a kit, how much L/R is there between the rack tom and the floor tom? do you really need to have the rack tom panned hard L and the floor tom panned hard R?

or at least, when compared to a 12 piece kit with rack toms 6-16in in size?


cheers,
wade

Definetly not. I'm with ya.
Of course if a kit doesn't have at least 7 toms and two kicks, I don't bother. I need a cymbal-full field of vision before I can even think about playing.

 

[mrface2112]

Definetly not. I'm with ya.
Of course if a kit doesn't have at least 7 toms and two kicks, I don't bother. I need a cymbal-full field of vision before I can even think about playing.

WOOHOO! Now i REALLY hear ya!

my problem is two-fold.....one, in that i get bored easily while playing drums and need to have a lot of things to smack. the other being that in reality i've only got about a dozen distinct fills, and rather than being innovative and coming up with new ones, i'd rather just retread the fills on a couple different drums.

but i've been known to pull out the old ludwig 4-piece and give it a workout too. and i find that a lot more suited for punk than the pearl kit with toms and cymbals everywhere.

still, many times i'll record the "big kit" with a single overhead and let the room and spot (tom, ride, etc) mics determine the stereo image on it. depends on the song, sonic goal, etc.


cheers,
wade

 

[NL5]

I guess it would depend on how far apart you put your OHs and/or Room Mics.

You'll get the biggest stereo spread with them less than an inch apart............




...X/Y.

 

[adolescentsfan]

Alot of digital multi tracks that I've been looking at say that a mic pre-amp is programmed in so I can make adjustments from there. Does this mean I don't need the mic pre-amp? Any thoughts?

I know this is a little off subject but whenever I try to start a new thread some sort of error occurs. Besides this is my last question. Help me here and I wont bother you again.....for a while.

 

[littledog]

You'll get the biggest stereo spread with them less than an inch apart............




...X/Y.

Not true - nothing wrong with XY, especially to keep phase problems minimal, but you get the biggest stereo spread using them as a spaced pair, especially if you space them far apart. (If you had said a "realistic" stereo image, rather than "the biggest" I would have agreed.)

But that's another topic.

If you have one mic - walk around the room plugging up one ear until you find a spot where the drums sound really good to your other ear - then put the mic where your ear is.

If you have two - you can
a) use one as an overhead and one as a kick mic.
b) use two overheads (stereo drums)
c) one as a close overhead and one as a more distant room mic

If you have three:
a) one overhead, one kick, one room
b) two overheads, one kick

If you have four:
a) two overheads, one kick, one room
b) two overheads, one kick, one snare
c) one overhead, one kick, one snare, one room

If you have five:
a) two overheads, one kick, one snare, one room

If you have more than five mics,you can start spot mic'ing individual toms, or try stereo room mics.

But surprisingly, the easiest for a beginner is probably one of the three or four mic setups. Having a dedicated kick mic can make things a LOT easier at mixdown for fine-tuning the all-important (at least in pop music) kick sound. And nothaving TOO MANY mics makes phase issues a little easier.

 

[Gidge]

Alot of digital multi tracks that I've been looking at say that a mic pre-amp is programmed in so I can make adjustments from there. Does this mean I don't need the mic pre-amp? Any thoughts?

I know this is a little off subject but whenever I try to start a new thread some sort of error occurs. Besides this is my last question. Help me here and I wont bother you again.....for a while.

most digital multitracks have preamps included....youll need one preamp for each mic you want to use simultaneously so find out how many it has beforehand......

 

[RAK]

You'll get the biggest stereo spread with them less than an inch apart............




...X/Y.

Wouldn't you say you'd get a wider stereo image with a near-coincident pair like ORTF or NOS, as opposed to the tighter image you get with a coincident pair like XY?

 

[boingoman]

You won't get any stereo image at all unless you use the pan knobs.

 

[RAK]

You won't get any stereo image at all unless you use the pan knobs.

Good point.
And even then, only if you pan one towards L and one towards R.

 

[NL5]

Wouldn't you say you'd get a wider stereo image with a near-coincident pair like ORTF or NOS, as opposed to the tighter image you get with a coincident pair like XY?

I don't us ORTF much, but no, I don't believe it is wider (could be wrong though) - with a standard X/Y you can get drums WAY unaturally wide - don't know why you would want them wider than that. The only way I know of to get a wider spread would be a M/S type deal. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but a wide spaced pair gives me a lot of ambience, but not a clear/wide stereo image.

I dunno?

 

[RAK]

I don't us ORTF much, but no, I don't believe it is wider (could be wrong though) - with a standard X/Y you can get drums WAY unaturally wide - don't know why you would want them wider than that. The only way I know of to get a wider spread would be a M/S type deal. Maybe I am doing something wrong, but a wide spaced pair gives me a lot of ambience, but not a clear/wide stereo image.

I dunno?

Well an XY configuration is a coincident pair at a 90 degree angle.
ORTF is 17 CM (or the size of a Frenchman's head, as they say) apart at 110 degrees.
NOS is 30 CM apart at 90 degrees.

ORTF and NOS are considered Near-Coincident pairs. It's not like it's a spaced array or decca tree or anything like that.

One of the reasons that XY fold down into Mono better than the others is because it's a fairly tight pattern.

This would be easier to show with pictures or a hands-on demonstration.

 

[NL5]

Well an XY configuration is two microphones at a 90 degree angle.
ORTF is 17 CM (or the size of a Frenchman's head, as they say) apart at 110 degrees.
NOS is 30 CM apart at 90 degrees.

ORTF and NOS are considered Near-Coincident pairs. It's not like it's a spaced array or decca tree or anything like that.

One of the reasons that XY fold down into Mono better than the others is because it's a fairly tight pattern.

This would be easier to show with pictures or a hands-on demonstration.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I'm a little slow sometimes.

Are you saying that because there is little to no space between capsules that the stereo image has to be smaller? The reason X/Y will fold down better is because it all but eliminates phase issues as the sound waves all reach both mics nearly simultaneously - which again is why it has such a clear wide stereo image.

Like I sasid, maybe I am doing something wrong..........

EDIT - Just saw that you are a product developer for Shure - what products?

 

[RAK]

The reason X/Y will fold down better is because it all but eliminates phase issues as the sound waves all reach both mics nearly simultaneously

I thought that's what I said.

- which again is why it has such a clear wide stereo image.

Maybe we have different definitions of a stereo image, but how do you say a tight pattern like X/Y has a wide stereo image? ORTF and NOS are just variations of the X/Y pattern, but I do consider them as capturing "wider stereo images"
If you had a spaced array of two mics on opposite ends of a 20 foot stage, that would be an extremely wide stereo image, but probably susceptible to lots of phase issues.

EDIT - Just saw that you are a product developer for Shure - what products?

I'm in the Personal Audio Division. Are your familiar with our E-Series earphones? That's where I'm at.

 

[omtayslick]

Good point.
And even then, only if you pan one towards L and one towards R.

Better point!

 

[Dogbreath]

Just poppin in with another "4 mics" here.

Been using the "Recorderman Technique" for a couple of years now and found I like it the best.

Kick, snare and 2 OH's with the OH's panned at 60 and 65...not full pan

my 2c............

 

[littledog]

If you had a spaced array of two mics on opposite ends of a 20 foot stage, that would be an extremely wide stereo image, but probably susceptible to lots of phase issues.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make about halfway up the page. Clearly there is a semantic issue here. Rak and I are defining a wide stereo image as one in which the virtual drum kit appears to be wider than the actual real life kit being recorded. For example, the distance between the high hat and the floor tom appearing to be 15 feet, as opposed to the reality of 4 feet.

When NL5 uses the term "widest image", he apparently is referring to a sharp, clear image, not refering to absolute width. At least that's what it seems. There is no question that a widely spaced pair will create a wider stereo image than a coincident pair - that's just common knowledge. Perhaps NL5 should use a better term than "wide" to describe the sharp clear image that he likes from X-Y configurations.

 

[tbone36109]

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I'm a little slow sometimes.

Like I sasid, maybe I am doing something wrong..........

to simply this post all the gear you already have and your budget and we will tell you a few options of what to get(we are good at that part) then we can explain how to use everything and what not ... just a suggestion not trying to be mean just make it easier on you

 

[hairylarry]

I can record drums with zero mics

Hi,

I can record drums with zero mics.

In a small to medium room with not too many tracks on a portastudio mic everything else and assign nothing to the drums. Zero mics. Zero tracks.

In this situation the problem isn't getting drums into the mix it's having too much drums in the mix.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry