how many mics do I need for drums?

[RAK]

That's exactly the point I was trying to make about halfway up the page. Clearly there is a semantic issue here. Rak and I are defining a wide stereo image as one in which the virtual drum kit appears to be wider than the actual real life kit being recorded. For example, the distance between the high hat and the floor tom appearing to be 15 feet, as opposed to the reality of 4 feet.

When NL5 uses the term "widest image", he apparently is referring to a sharp, clear image, not refering to absolute width. At least that's what it seems. There is no question that a widely spaced pair will create a wider stereo image than a coincident pair - that's just common knowledge. Perhaps NL5 should use a better term than "wide" to describe the sharp clear image that he likes from X-Y configurations.

Sounds about right.
When I referred to XY as "tigther" I meant - "sharp" or "clear" ORTF/NOS being slightly less "tight" (near-coincident as opposed to coincident). Something like two mics 6 feet apart - "wide" stereo image, but not as "sharp" or "clear" because of potentinal phasing issues.

 

[RAK]

Hi,

I can record drums with zero mics.

In a small to medium room with not too many tracks on a portastudio mic everything else and assign nothing to the drums. Zero mics. Zero tracks.

In this situation the problem isn't getting drums into the mix it's having too much drums in the mix.

Thanks,

Hairy Larry

If it works for you, cool! Sounds like you could be fighting major phasing issues though. Can you put baffels around the drums?

 

[NL5]

to simply this post all the gear you already have and your budget and we will tell you a few options of what to get(we are good at that part) then we can explain how to use everything and what not ... just a suggestion not trying to be mean just make it easier on you

Ummmm...I don't have ANY problem recording drums. I'm not sure where you got that from. i was just trying to understand what he was trying to say. I believe it is just a matter of semantics, as they have suggested......

For they record, I use X/Y or spaced pair for overheads. More often spaced pair with X/Y for my room mics, as I like the sound of my drum room and want to pick up a lot of the ambience.

Just for fun I will list my gear, and maybe you can (just for fun) tell me what to do with it. It's not the greatest gear, but it's ok.......

Microphones:
Microtech Gefell UM92.1S Matched Set Mics
Royer R-121 Ribbon Mic
Rode NTK Vacuum Tube Mic
Audio Technica 4033 Mic (2)
Neumann KM184 Stereo Matched Set
MXL 603S Matched Stereo Pair Mics
AT23HE
Sennhieser e602 Mic
Audix D1 Mic
Audix D2 Mic (3)
Audix D3 Mic
Audix D4 Mic
Audix D6 Mic
Shure SM57 Mic (2)

Outboard:
API 3214+ 4 Channel Mic Pre
P/AMR VMP-2 All Tube Mic Pre
Great River MP-2NV Mic Pre
Manley Vari-Mu Compressor
Empirical Labs EL-8X Distressor (x2)
Purple Audio MC77 Compressor
Eventide Eclipse Harmonizer/Reverb
Kurzweil Rumour Reverb Processor

Thanks!

 

[littledog]

It's no big deal, and tangential to the discussion.

You started out by saying: "You get the biggest stereo spread with them [overheads] less than an inch apart."

At least two of us (Rak and me) disagree with the use of the word "biggest". If you said "sharpest" or "clearest" or "most defined", we might not have argued.

But "biggest spread" certainly implies widest, which is where most engineers would disagree with you.

If you still have no idea what I'm talking about, either reread the thread from the top, or let's just let it drop. We are rapidly approaching the kicking-the-dead-horse zone...

 

[NL5]

We are rapidly approaching the kicking-the-dead-horse zone...

Agreed. It's me. My definition of "stereo image" is apparently not the standard accepted version. To me, X/Y, when placed and panned correctly can sprerad the drums as wide as the speakers. M/S can spread them PAST the speakers. But spaced pair gives you the "feeling" it's wider due to the ambience - if that makes any sense. Like I said, I am a little slow, and have a hard time explaining what I mean..........

 

[RAK]

For they record, I use X/Y or spaced pair for overheads. More often spaced pair with X/Y for my room mics,

I want to echo LittleDog, and at the risk of getting to close to that dead horse, I was honestly confused by what you said above.

You said for OHs you use "...X/Y or spaced pair..." then for room mics you said "...spaced pair with X/Y..."

X/Y isn't a spaced pair, but maybe I'm misreading something here.

(really not trying to stir the pot here, sorry)

 

[NL5]

You said for OHs you use "...X/Y or spaced pair..." then for room mics you said "...spaced pair with X/Y..."

X/Y isn't a spaced pair, but maybe I'm misreading something here.

(really not trying to stir the pot here, sorry)

I said - "I use X/Y or spaced pair for overheads. More often, spaced pair with X/Y for my room mics"

Re-read that, I believe my english is correct (except forthe mising comma) The second sentence is a continuation of the first. Meaning, I use a spaced pair for the OH's and the room mic's are in an X/Y pattern.

I have used the reverse as well - X/Y for the OH's and a wide spaced pair (20 feet out and 20 feet spread) for the room mics.

 

[RAK]

I said - "I use X/Y or spaced pair for overheads. More often, spaced pair with X/Y for my room mics"

Re-read that, I believe my english is correct (except forthe mising comma) The second sentence is a continuation of the first. Meaning, I use a spaced pair for the OH's and the room mic's are in an X/Y pattern.

I have used the reverse as well - X/Y for the OH's and a wide spaced pair (20 feet out and 20 feet spread) for the room mics.

I did read it correctly, that's why I only quoted the important parts. It was the "...spaced pair with X/Y for my room mics..." which was confusing. It sounded like you were saying you used a spaced pair in conjuction (with) X/Y, possibly meaning you used a spaced pair in an X/Y configuration (which is counterintuative) or you use a spaced pair AND an X/Y pair for room mics.

But now I just realize what you meant (I hope), you meant that:
"More often, [I use] a spaced pair [for overheads] with X/Y for my room mics."

That makes perfect sense.

 

[NL5]

But now I just realize what you meant (I hope), you meant that:
"More often, [I use] a spaced pair [for overheads] with X/Y for my room mics."

That makes perfect sense.

Man, my english must be REALLY bad. Isn't that EXACTLY what I said in my post above???

"Meaning, I use a spaced pair for the OH's and the room mic's are in an X/Y pattern."

Anyway, the horse has been kicked - I'll just wait to see what the guys says I should do with my gear...

 

[RAK]

Man, my english must be REALLY bad. Isn't that EXACTLY what I said in my post above???

"Meaning, I use a spaced pair for the OH's and the room mic's are in an X/Y pattern."

Anyway, the horse has been kicked - I'll just wait to see what the guys says I should do with my gear...

See, as a seperate sentence, you said "More often as spaced pair with X/Y for room mics" Therefore I read it as the spaced pair with X/Y were for room mics, a completely seperate thought from when you were talking about the overheads.
If you had said what you just quoted above, that would have been very clear.

I'm not at all trying to be a jerk, just explain where MY confusion came from.

But maybe I'm just off my rocker.
I agree, the horse has been kicked.

 

[tbone36109]

Ummmm...I don't have ANY problem recording drums. I'm not sure where you got that from. i was just trying to understand what he was trying to say. I believe it is just a matter of semantics, as they have suggested......

o sorry i thought you were the one who started the thread(i had just finished a long paper and was kinda dead mentally)

 

[NL5]

o sorry i thought you were the one who started the thread(i had just finished a long paper and was kinda dead mentally)

no problem

(I'm kinda dead mentally all the time......)

 

[Big Cadillac]

John Bonham was recorded using three mics: one kick drum and two overheads. This sounds like a good starting place.

 

[littledog]

John Bonham was recorded using three mics: one kick drum and two overheads. This sounds like a good starting place.

I was under the impression that his drums were often recorded in a rather long ambient room, with a room mic at the far end as a big part of the equation.

But I wasn't there, so I'm only relying on hearsay. Perhaps Cadillac's sources are more accurate than mine...

 

[RAK]

I was under the impression that his drums were often recorded in a rather long ambient room, with a room mic at the far end as a big part of the equation.

But I wasn't there, so I'm only relying on hearsay. Perhaps Cadillac's sources are more accurate than mine...

Just based on a lot of the recordings I've heard, that sounds more accurate, but chances are they didn't always do the same thing for every single session.

Alas, I wasn't there either.