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Greg_L
Banned
Oh yeah well you're wrong!
Oh yeah well you're wrong!
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Good points, I'd pretty much go along with that. For me music ceased to be a sonic contact sport when I was a teenager and my sister and I would argue over whether the Bay city rollers were better than the Beatles or guys at school would attack me with the glories of Led Zeppelin !
I was curious to see how people approached lyrics and whether or not they held much meaning or whether they were just words shoved together. All approaches are valid as far as I'm concerned and there will be much to agree with or disagree with.
I'm a bit like the modern urban rat, there are some bait that I can just leave where laid, though I may initially be itching to lap it up !
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SwissArmyKnife
New member
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Greg_L
Banned
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
I'm a singer-songwriter- a storyteller first, a musician last, sort of the flip side of Greg's coin. If you are a good musician, and you don't have a story to tell, then shut up and play.
Lyrics are the largest part of the dumbing down of modern pop music. Most modern lyric has degenerated into repetitive doggerel, which is not to say there hasn't been plenty of that for years. Favorite lyric sections? I have so many of them, I hardly know where to start. From Nat King Cole to David Wilcox. Maybe with this, from Paul Kantner and Grace Slick:
"Someday everything will be gone except silence
The Earth will be quiet again
Seas from clouds will wash off the ashes of violence
Left as the memory of men
There will be no survivors, my friend
Suddenly everyone will look surprised
Stars spinning wheels in the sky
The sun is scrambled in their eyes
While the moon circles- like a vulture
Someone stood at a window and cried one tear
I thought that would stop the war
But someone is- killing meeeeyou
That's the last hour to think anymore
Jelly and juice and bubbles on the floor"
From "The House at Pooneil Corners"
Album- "Crown of Creation"
RCA records-1968
Lyrics are the largest part of the dumbing down of modern pop music. Most modern lyric has degenerated into repetitive doggerel, which is not to say there hasn't been plenty of that for years. Favorite lyric sections? I have so many of them, I hardly know where to start. From Nat King Cole to David Wilcox. Maybe with this, from Paul Kantner and Grace Slick:
"Someday everything will be gone except silence
The Earth will be quiet again
Seas from clouds will wash off the ashes of violence
Left as the memory of men
There will be no survivors, my friend
Suddenly everyone will look surprised
Stars spinning wheels in the sky
The sun is scrambled in their eyes
While the moon circles- like a vulture
Someone stood at a window and cried one tear
I thought that would stop the war
But someone is- killing meeeeyou
That's the last hour to think anymore
Jelly and juice and bubbles on the floor"
From "The House at Pooneil Corners"
Album- "Crown of Creation"
RCA records-1968
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XLR
______
I usually ignore the meaning of the lyrics when I listen to a piece of music. I prefer to hear the vocal performance as an instrument. The sound is more important to me than the meaning of the words.
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Richard Monroe
Well-known member
That can be a major problem in mixing for a storyteller. Often the mixing engineer mixes the vocal so it sits just fine in the mix, and it all sounds lovely, and the story is totally lost. A classic example is Sarah Watkins on the first Nickel Creek album. She sounds great, and you can't understand a word she is saying. If you have nothing in particular to say, that may be good mixing. I'd walk out of that studio and never look back. For me, the music is just a vehicle for the story. The story does not exist to support the music, it's the other way around. As mixing engineers, we need to remember that not everyone agrees with that. You have to be sensitive to the vision of the recording artist(s). If you think it's all about the music (and in some cases it is), it goes against your grain to boost mids and mix up a mediocre vocal performance, but if you are mixing Bob Dylan, it's what you have to do.-Richie
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XLR
______
I imagine it would be.
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XLR
______
No, seriously, when I listen to a song that's a detailed story, I usually listen carefully to the story aspect too. And I mean a story that's more than the typical Country song story. Whiskey in the Jar comes to mind as an example. A good arrangement will feature the story and not have a lot of ear candy going on to distract from it. The musically repetitive nature of story songs also is a good thing re focusing the listener on the foreground element.
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XLR
______
But if Mark O'Connor was playing a line behind it, at any volume level, I wouldn't hear any of the story. Then again, he has too much good taste to be overbearing like that. Not all musicians do.
joeym
New member
not as important as a good melody.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Cue a bunch of idealistic windbags claiming how they write deep and meaningful lyrics, or posting examples of crappy songs that "move" them with the stupid lyrical content. Gullible bozos.
I write deep and meaningful lyrics, the lyrical content of which, really move me. This is an example. I hope they move you too.....
"I love the way left handed people write
But I hate the way they beat me at snooker
I love to hear left handed instruments
And I know my bouzouki from my darabouka"
So when are you moving ?
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Greg_L
Banned
Sorry, not feeling it.
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
I just now asked my kids and their friend (he's 13) which they prefered, the music or the words. Unanimously, they said the music. I asked them why and my 8 year old made mention of a song we listened to yesterday in which he really dug the song but said the words were poor and made no sense !
But words obviously form some part of their thinking in terms of songs. I showed my older kid a few guitar chords and as he practices, he starts to hear little bits and the two of them (the other one is 5) came up with a spiffy little ditty in Em that made me both laugh and think....
"If you can't get it, leave it and forget it,
If you can't get it, leave it and forget it,
If you can't get it, leave it and forget it,
But if you can get it, then get it and go !"
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Greg_L
Banned
They have more sense than 99% of the "musicians" in here.
saads
Baka
Don't most artists make the melody first and then add the lyrics...? Hmm...
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apamallard
New member
Lyrics have always been important to me. I think people, especially musicians get confused about what good lyrics are though.
Of course the slew of 'wimpy' singsonger writers do lyrics a disservice sometimes, as pseudo-emotional lyrics can grate. The best lyrics are honest and dishonest songs are easy to spot. As far as I can tell, if you sing the truth as eloquently as you're able, then you're doing okay.
Dylan's music helped fuel a cutural shift. I don't know of any wanky cock rock guitar solo that had the same effect...
Of course the slew of 'wimpy' singsonger writers do lyrics a disservice sometimes, as pseudo-emotional lyrics can grate. The best lyrics are honest and dishonest songs are easy to spot. As far as I can tell, if you sing the truth as eloquently as you're able, then you're doing okay.
Dylan's music helped fuel a cutural shift. I don't know of any wanky cock rock guitar solo that had the same effect...
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apamallard
New member
You build a solid house, but living in it is the important bit.
Yeah, I know, it's pretty shit as far as metaphors go...
Toddskins
Member
1) This is the first time I totally agree 100% with Greg_L, and I'm referring to the first post of his on this thread. That the content of the words are the least important part of a song, usually.
2) the OP did ask for people's personal opinions. Therefore, the people attacking Greg_L's remarks "as though he were opinionated", well, yes, he was giving his opinion, especially in light of the OP's asking for people's opinions.
Greg_L, and myself included, probably think of ourselves as more knowledgeable about this OP's subject because we more than likely see ourselves as older, having come out of the era where musicianship was far more important to the success of getting played on the radio prior to 1985, therefore all things were just more intensely competitive and striving to be better than others, in all areas of the music-making business.
But that's not all, the late 1960's and 1970's, in particular, produced a type of music with an impact that knocked us out, and we were screaming for more.
And especially songs in the 70's, great masterpiece musical scores known as LP ("Long Play" because the DJ's, would play the whole side of a record with little or no commercial interruptions) records were made in which whatever the hell the band was singing about, almost made no impression upon us listeners because we were so into the SONG - Rhythm, Melody, Drumming, Singing.
We would make up words (if we did not know them) to sing along with singers all the time, just because we loved the "sound". All my friends, who came out of the 70's, say the same thing. All of us. We did not care what the song was about.
As Greg stated early on, that singing is not the same thing as lyrics. Singing is the expression, musical inflection, technique, etc., of using one's voice like an instrument, or to express an attitude that emotionally connects with the listener.
I'm sure Greg would agree, that we are more than happy if the words are cool, but that was not the critical thing for us.
Examples of great music with little meaning to the words:
Yes - Roundabout (in fact, almost any old YES song had no meaning. Just ask Jon Anderson, the lyric writer and singer.)
Nektar - Remember the Future (strange, if not interesting words. Fantastic music!)
REO Speedwagon - Ride In The Storm Out (Not too many people cared what they were singing about.)
Songs in which the lyrics are critical and probably would not have succeeded on music alone:
Don McLean - American Pie (music is fantastic, but doubtful that it would have succeeded without the poetry of Don.)
- Starry Starry Night (same thing)
RUSH - 2112 (Probably would have succeeded regardless of the awesome story told. They might have been able to sing about anything, and the Epic song would have still been a masterpiece.
Lastly,
Taking the orginal question out of context does not help.
Do lyrics matter?
We can always point to a song (an isolated example) in which the question can be answered definitely one way or the other, but that is not the question.
The question is, are lyrics important to you?
2) the OP did ask for people's personal opinions. Therefore, the people attacking Greg_L's remarks "as though he were opinionated", well, yes, he was giving his opinion, especially in light of the OP's asking for people's opinions.
Greg_L, and myself included, probably think of ourselves as more knowledgeable about this OP's subject because we more than likely see ourselves as older, having come out of the era where musicianship was far more important to the success of getting played on the radio prior to 1985, therefore all things were just more intensely competitive and striving to be better than others, in all areas of the music-making business.
But that's not all, the late 1960's and 1970's, in particular, produced a type of music with an impact that knocked us out, and we were screaming for more.
And especially songs in the 70's, great masterpiece musical scores known as LP ("Long Play" because the DJ's, would play the whole side of a record with little or no commercial interruptions) records were made in which whatever the hell the band was singing about, almost made no impression upon us listeners because we were so into the SONG - Rhythm, Melody, Drumming, Singing.
We would make up words (if we did not know them) to sing along with singers all the time, just because we loved the "sound". All my friends, who came out of the 70's, say the same thing. All of us. We did not care what the song was about.
As Greg stated early on, that singing is not the same thing as lyrics. Singing is the expression, musical inflection, technique, etc., of using one's voice like an instrument, or to express an attitude that emotionally connects with the listener.
I'm sure Greg would agree, that we are more than happy if the words are cool, but that was not the critical thing for us.
Examples of great music with little meaning to the words:
Yes - Roundabout (in fact, almost any old YES song had no meaning. Just ask Jon Anderson, the lyric writer and singer.)
Nektar - Remember the Future (strange, if not interesting words. Fantastic music!)
REO Speedwagon - Ride In The Storm Out (Not too many people cared what they were singing about.)
Songs in which the lyrics are critical and probably would not have succeeded on music alone:
Don McLean - American Pie (music is fantastic, but doubtful that it would have succeeded without the poetry of Don.)
- Starry Starry Night (same thing)
RUSH - 2112 (Probably would have succeeded regardless of the awesome story told. They might have been able to sing about anything, and the Epic song would have still been a masterpiece.
Lastly,
Taking the orginal question out of context does not help.
Do lyrics matter?
We can always point to a song (an isolated example) in which the question can be answered definitely one way or the other, but that is not the question.
The question is, are lyrics important to you?
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apamallard
New member
Your second point negates your first point. Don McLean was successful because of his lyrics. You can only use this as an argument to support the premiership of music over lyrics if every lyrically heavy song was a failure.
I get what you're saying though. Lyrics are important to me, maybe for the same reason music is important to you. I'm 26, so I've grown up with pop music primarily. Polished music with throw away lyrics. When I first played the bootleg series by Bob Dylan it was like a light being switched on. I've been in to lyricists ever since.