How important are lyrics to you ...and why ?

[miroslav]

Sure, but is it really the words? I don't think so. I think they connect with the melody. They don't care what they're singing, as long as it's catchy. Some of the stupidest lyrics in music are the most famous songs. Yellow Submarine? Obla di obla da? Seriously? It's not the literal words. It's the hook. Catchy = melody.

Look at "Born to Run". The most famous part of that song is the "Whooaaah" that Springsteen yelps like a dumb goon.

Greg, IMO…you are viewing the overall discussion solely on how YOU feel about lyrics....which is fine, but it isn’t proving anything.

I'm no Springsteen fanatic (even though I grew up in Jersey not too far from Asbury Park during his heyday…we were actually sick of him after awhile )...but a LOT of people knew a LOT more than just "Whooooooahhh" in Born To Run.
And while they may not know every word…the amount they do know is what sets the mood/context of the song.

AFA stuff like "Obla di Obla da"...come on now...you are intentionally picking very quirky, novelty songs and ignoring the thousands of songs with meaningful lyrics.
If you just want to say that there could have been different lyrics and that some songs would still be good...OK, but that doesn't prove lyrics are unimportant (other than maybe to you).

I agree with you that delivery, melody, and cadence are very important...but a *song* is also about telling a story...it's not just about the music and “any old lyrics will do”!
It's true that people may not always know every word to a song...but still, even if they just know the chorus or maybe one verse...there is still a lyric component that will hook them and set the overall mood/intent of the song...not with all songs, but with many.
Take some really good music and put stupid, silly, meaningless words to it...and 7-out-of-10 times the crappy lyrics will kill the value of the song. Once in awhile you might have a cool little "novelty" hit.
Now if you are only writing for your own amusement and don’t give a rats ass about anyone liking your songs…do whatever you feel, but most of the public does connect with the lyrics, though yeah, sometimes songs with not-so-special lyrics will also be hits just because maybe the music rocks.
So you don’t need GREAT lyrics all the time, but that’s not saying they are always “unimportant”.

You don’t lose anything by writing good lyrics...and you certainly don’t gain anything by writing crappy or meaningless lyrics.

 

[Greg_L]

Greg, IMO…you are viewing the overall discussion solely on how YOU feel about lyrics....which is fine, but it isn’t proving anything.

You are doing the exact same thing!

You are no more an authority on this than I am, yet you think you are.

Your view of lyrics is based on an innocent gullibility. People like you keep the commercial music machine churning out the hits! That's perfectly fine. I look at it from a more realistic and practical point of view. I don't care about hits or fans, but I do know that you don't need anything more than words that sometimes rhyme.

 

[miroslav]

And just to add one very important aspect of songwriting (for me at least)...

100% of songs that I've ever written began with a combination of words and melody.
The lyrics drove the melody (and chords/harmony) in a particular direction.

But some writers don't write that way...instead working out the music to the end...and then adding the lyrics as an afterthought...often because those writers have a difficult time with lyrics…saying something with lyrics.
So it doesn't surprise me if the lyrics are then "meaningless and unimportant" to those songs.

 

[Greg_L]

100% of songs that I've ever written began with a combination of words and melody.
The lyrics drove the melody (and chords/harmony) in a particular direction.

.

There's your problem.

 

[miroslav]

You are no more an authority on this than I am, yet you think you are.

I've listed some examples of songs/artists before...of course, you ignored them, or you want to narrow the song lists only to very recent crap.
If you want...I can list many songs and artists who wrote great lyrics...but there's no point to it, as it's plainly obvious they exist and NOT just my "innocent gullibility" that's making me imagine them.

But the real reason you think you are more correct on the views about songs/lyrics is this:

I don't care about hits or fans.....

And that's fine. You can proceed with that approach, but just having that attitude about songwriting doesn't prove that lyrics are "unimportant".

Go and try to sell it to Dylan, Kristofferson, Joni Mitchell, Bernie Taupin, Leonard Cohen, Tom Waits, Judy Collins…and countless others right up to today.

I'm sure they also write lyrics from a point of "innocent gullibility"....right.

 

[miroslav]

There's your problem.

Well...if we're going to now talk about each other’s problems...
...it seems to me you're the one that has a problem with the concept of writing meaningful lyrics.

I don't do it or care about it, therefore it's not important to anyone else either.

 

[Greg_L]

I just listened to some of your songs in your link. It seems you agree with me in practice, but are afraid to admit it for some reason. Your lyrics were pretty cliche and predictable and the delivery was completely void of emotion or hook. I'm totally cool with that, for real, but get off your soapbox if those are the songs you write.

"My tears cut like knives"?

Or maybe we're saying the same thing, but in different ways? What you think of as great lyrics is just trite garbage to me but I can like a song no matter what the lyrics say. Who's right? Who cares? You're the one that got offended by my opinions. Why is that? I never asked or demanded that anyone to agree with me, but what I've said isn't wrong. I seem to have hit a nerve with you. Calm down.

 

[Whatmysay]

Lyrics are important in so much as they define your audience and any discussion about lyrics without reference to audience will come down to personal taste and hypothetical. Earlier comments have referred to style/genre determining lyric content, which is just another way of referencing audience.

Gecko mentioned very earlier in the thread ‘perspective’ and I totally agree. If you write for yourself or under the influence of divine inspiration then your lyrics are whatever the ‘muse’ determines – inspirational, cliqued, minimal, etc? But if you seek an audience for your work, then the audience you seek will determine your lyric content and style.

Discussion about lyrics without reference to audience or musical style is like demonstrating the varied flavours of cheese through interpretive dance - very messy


Burt

 

[miroslav]

I seem to have hit a nerve with you. Calm down.

Hit a nerve?



I didn’t get on any soapbox about MY songs (you brought them up).
We WERE talking about lyrics in popular songs over the years.
But since you had nothing to say about the lyric writing skills of the artists I mentioned, you turned it into another dinky personal shot (which seems to be your SOP on most threads with most anyone you debate).
When all else fails, you try to mock your debate opponent…
…so maybe it’s YOUR nerves that are really in question here.

I'll be up all night tossing and turning now...’cuz you "offended" me!

“She Wolf”
Yeah, OK…I certainly can understand where you are coming from when you talk about meaningless lyrics!

 

[miroslav]

Discussion about lyrics without reference to audience or musical style is like demonstrating the varied flavours of cheese through interpretive dance - very messy

True.

I mentioned earlier that with some music styles/genres, lyrics DO take a different, less "valuable" position....and it will feel that way for both songwriter and audience.
But there are other styles that depend on lyrics as much as they do the music.
Anyone making blanket statements that any/all lyrics are "not important" obviously is only focusing on specific styles limited by his/her own musical tastes.

"My tears cut like knives"?

Get it right at least.
The line is: "feel my tear drops cut like a knife."

 

[Greg_L]

Hit a nerve?



I didn’t get on any soapbox about MY songs (you brought them up).
We WERE talking about lyrics in popular songs over the years.
But since you had nothing to say about the lyric writing skills of the artists I mentioned, you turned it into another dinky personal shot (which seems to be your SOP on most threads with most anyone you debate).
When all else fails, you try to mock your debate opponent…
…so maybe it’s YOUR nerves that are really in question here.

I'll be up all night tossing and turning now...’cuz you "offended" me!

“She Wolf”
Yeah, OK…I certainly can understand where you are coming from when you talk about meaningless lyrics!

I've always been the first to admit that my lyrics are dumb. It makes no difference to me. They're just words. I'm more concerned with delivering overall energy and fun. And even then, it's not important to me if anyone gets it or not. You brought up your own stuff.

And just to add one very important aspect of songwriting (for me at least)...

100% of songs that I've ever written began with a combination of words and melody.
The lyrics drove the melody (and chords/harmony) in a particular direction.

Do I really have to keep reminding you where you say things?

It wasn't a personal shot. I just expect people to practice what they preach and have some integrity if they're gonna be so opinionated. I said that "I'm totally cool" with your vapid lyrics and poor delivery, and I meant it. It's okay. On another positive note, your drum sound is much improved. Kudos there.

What do you want me to say about the people you mentioned? They're dated and boring. Britney spears sells lots of albums and has lots of fans too. Is she a great songwriter? Does she even write her own songs?

Anyone making blanket statements that any/all lyrics are "not important" obviously is only focusing on specific styles limited by his/her own musical tastes.

Again, the exact same can be said about you. But since we actually agree in practice, it's all good. Peace bro.

 

[miroslav]

It wasn't a personal shot. I just expect people to practice what they preach and have some integrity if they're gonna be so opinionated. I said that "I'm totally cool" with your vapid lyrics and poor delivery, and I meant it. It's okay. On another positive note, your drum sound is much improved. Kudos there.

Your a real funny guy...in an over-medicated sorta way.

I never brought up my songs as a demonstration of superior lyrics.
I already said earlier that I put effort into lyrics that mean something for the song at hand, but that I'm not talking about any "lofty" shit...just lyrics that connect with the average listener...and I get some good lines in there too.

But we were never discussing MY lyrics (you got into that)...we were discussing if lyrics were important.
When I listed a bunch of great songwriters of exceptional lyrics...you scoffed at them and call them dated and boring.
I'm sure if I brought up some younger/current writers of great lyrics...you would find some other reason to dismiss them.

It's OK, Greg...keep writting music and lyrics the way it works for you.

 

[Milnoque]

"American Pie" and "Louie Louie" are both great songs

 

[grimtraveller]

If you don't want to know the result folks, look away now !

For me, lyrics are something of a paradox because they are important to me, yet not important at all. To further confuse the matter, in my estimation, they can’t be divorced from the vocals – I see them as two sides of the same coin in some ways. And to push the boat out even further, I can’t divorce the vocals from the music. To me they really are part of the same package. A bit like the human body which is made up of many parts that all have important roles to play. It’s fun and an interesting excercise to break down the parts and look at them and it’s been interesting to see what various people think on the matter.
Though I say that there is an aspect of lyrics that aren’t important, I dig lyrics. I think it’s going too far to say they are meaningless. But it’s not as cracked as it may initially seem to say they are the least important part of a song. I thought long and hard about this. Least important doesn’t mean unimportant in my view. In fact, one could argue that lyrics are of crucial importance – just not as important as all the other elements of a song with vocals.
The fact that so often people don’t know the words but sing anyway could actually be taken by both (those who think they’re important and those that don’t) groups as evidence to support their respective cases. And to be honest, you could make the same argument about any instrument in a song. That you like or are moved by the beat of a song doesn’t necessarily mean you appreciate the finer points of drums or percussion or how they actually drive or frame the song. But it doesn’t make that part irrelevant. If you took the bass out, so much music of the last 50 years would implode. But few that I know gush about the bass lines of songs.
And when one thinks of reggae, psychedelia, rap, punk, the more socially conscious black artists of the 60s and 70s, it’s hard to dismiss the part lyrics played in the continuation and strenghthening of those scenes, not to mention the scores of national and native folk songs that have helped keep people together over many centuries.......Lyrics whether good or bad can act as carriers of thoughts and opinions that can and do influence others. Of course, they need to be housed within a song that people like. Actually, that’s where alot of Christian pop/rock/ music from the mid 60s on shot itself in the foot in my view. The lyrical message was soooo prominent and central to the ‘songs’ that too often, the songs themselves suffered because the message was more important than the song and ironically often produced (IMO) weak lyrics and sometimes bland pap music. Rarely could that be said of music in the mainstream and underground stuff, at least until fairly recently. A good memorable song with crummy lyrics will always hands down beat poetic, deep, meaningful lyrics housed within a shitty song.
But yeah, I dig lyrics, be they serious, deep, poetic, historical, humourous, nonsensical, bland. But I like songs more than I'll ever dig a particular component. A great song and a decent vocal can shine a light on a lyric that may have gone unnoticed and make it seem more meaningful than it actually is.

 

[MMensch]

That's one great post Grimtraveller, I couldn't have said it better myself, and it's in many ways very close to the way I feel about lyrics myself.

The fact that so often people don’t know the words but sing anyway could actually be taken by both (those who think they’re important and those that don’t) groups as evidence to support their respective cases. And to be honest, you could make the same argument about any instrument in a song.

Yes, but then again, since the lyrics are the only element of the song that can also carry concrete, non-abstract meaning, you have to be careful about the extent to which you can compare to the rest of the instrumentation.

Also, it's quite possible to know the words by heart but have a very loose idea about what the song is actually about - I'm definitely that sort of listener. I'm not sure if it's a widespread phenomenon but I actively avoid ever actually listening to the lyrics as a linear narrative, let alone read them. Instead, I let my mind pick out random phrases and use them as building blocks for more or less abstract psychological conceits that involve all imagineable senses, as well as feelings and sentiments so indirect and volatile that there's no way I can put them into words. Music definitely plays a major part in this, too, I'm sure I wouldn't experience anything close to such effect if somebody read me a poem out loud, but on the other hand, I find that instrumental music doesn't have nearly the same effect on me.

"American Pie" and "Louie Louie" are both great songs

I was totally flustered to see "Louie Louie" used as an example of a great song, but then I did a search just in case and realised that I've had it confused with "Brother Louie". Carry on.

 

[grimtraveller]

I think many writers over the centuries have paid attention to the lyrics they write because for them, it’s important to have something to say, even if it’s not understood by the hearer though I’m sure most lyricists want to be. Poetry on it’s own just never comes close in my opinion. But stick that poetry or observation in a song, if I like it, I’m yours ! As a teenager I learned a number of things from song lyrics, believe it or not.

It was interesting that old songs like “Obladi oblada” and “Yellow submarine” were cited as examples of silly novelty songs coz they’re actually quite informative if you’re prepared to look at it. The former is a fascinating look at at nascent black life in mid to late 60s Britain at a time of increasing racial strife here {even the title is Yoruba for “life goes on...} through the eyes of a white guy. It’s a perceptive piece of writing. The latter is pretty deep, a story about how a generation of kids were so regaled by tales a sailor told them of life at sea that they stopped what they were doing and followed in his footsteps – the underlying theme being that the writer’s generation were going to do it better and more colourfully. Unfortunately, it gets lost in a hooky chorus so powerful that lovers and haters alike of the song rarely see beyond “We all live in a ......” !

Lyrics can be informative and tell you alot about the psyche of a generation or even a nation. The music (unless it’s early to mid 60s free jazz) rarely tells you about, for instance, the plight of black people in the US of A in the 60s. The lyrics do.

I like the way they act as a record, a snapshot in time of where a person or persons were at.


Ode to a home wrecker

Teysha Blue, how d’ya do ? Chibi Napa’s after you...
And Rami’s due at ten to two to teach us how to boogaloo
Truth hurts, mirrors laugh.....

Since I met the king of pain, I can’t even think my name
Still, now my will is so easy, laced with poetic intensity
Truth hurts, mirrors laugh.....

Bobby, the house is empty – the tenants have all left
The place is overrun with geckos, chomping,
slashing, with raw depth

Down on the southside there’ll be ‘ell to pay if some
nubidoos don’t get their way
We’ll send the boys to wreck yer noise, compress yer
gain stage, improve yer toys
Truth hurts, mirrors laugh.....


Maybe to the tune of "Spiderman" ! Just my obscure way of tipping my hat to HR. The lines may be crap and not resolve but to me they mean something, kind of like loads of interesting names, fascinating arguments, sarcastic comments and good information rolled into one.
That‘s the other thing, lyrics often hold great meaning for the writers of them. But I like lines that I like. I don’t always care if they make sense. Sometimes they feel like they make great sense in an unconscious sort of way. And of course, the way words fit in a song is often more important than the words themselves.
It’s a paradox !

 

[Mr Clean]

Words mean a hell of a lot to me in songs. I write lots of songs and the only ones I truely like and enjoy playing and other people enjoy hearing me play are song full of words with meaning that they can relate to.

That's basically what music is all about, relating to the song and the time you hear it. That's why songs stick to memory and remind you of times long gone, a first love, a death in the family etc etc......

I craft my songs around lyrics. A good melody and a catchy chorus helps but the words a listener can identify with is way more important I think. Someone singing nonsense in a song at a gig to me wouldn't captivate me but some heart felt words of love lost, or anything that I can relate to will get my attention.

But I guess the nonsense songs and the personal ones are two seperate identities in themselves. Musicians where I'm from have signature tunes. In my experience. I'm well known in my area for being that guy that wrote Snapshots. It's a crap little song, took me 5 minutes to write, I've played it 1000's of times and if I play a gig and don't play it, I get people asking me why not! All the artists in my area have their 'song' that everyone knows and identifies with I guess.

I'm a clown, I clown around, I'm always laughing and making fun of myself and everything in my sight, it's my nature, so I wrote a song about it. I am a clown!

My Gran used to say a lot of things to me about growing up and living life and experiences, I wrote them in a song. My Grandad told me his stories of being in WWII and being shipwrecked twice, hoping to god to get home to his wife and kids alive. I wrote a song about it. Twice!

I guess everyone is different though. Personally I don't do covers, haven't recorded a cover for years. I did when I was learning but when I found my style of writing and voice (I was tone deaf when I started playing/singing) now I strictly play my own songs.

I'm not a fan of instumentals but I'll find myself writing a song I can't find the words for. I'll leave it as an instrumental until the words come, if ever!

I've rambled. Apologies

A x

 

[Mr Clean]

Ode to a home wrecker

Teysha Blue, how d’ya do ? Chibi Napa’s after you...
And Rami’s due at ten to two to teach us how to boogaloo
Truth hurts, mirrors laugh.....

Since I met the king of pain, I can’t even think my name
Still, now my will is so easy, laced with poetic intensity
Truth hurts, mirrors laugh.....

Bobby, the house is empty – the tenants have all left
The place is overrun with geckos, chomping,
slashing, with raw depth

Down on the southside there’ll be ‘ell to pay if some
nubidoos don’t get their way
We’ll send the boys to wreck yer noise, compress yer
gain stage, improve yer toys
Truth hurts, mirrors laugh.....

Love those words....!

 

[NewAgeMuttLange]

Heck...take most Beatles songs (even the ones with weird lyrics)...the lyrics are key in every song...even the Love Me Do stuff.

The lyrics being key to the song would imply atleast some form of meaning, I would tend to suggest the the Melody is the Key song component to any beatle's song.. I mean there is actually "gibberish" is certain beatle's songs but they're still good.. so yeh.. IMHO.

 

[SwissArmyKnife]

New forum member, far from new songwriter.

I'm not even going to answer the question ... because from the rest of this thread, it's a virtual certainty that somebody will dive into personal attack mode. No thanks.

But ... here's what I want to know:

1. Why does a simple question have to be a competition?

2. If one guy's lyrics are important to him, why does somebody else have to say what a naive idiot he is?

3. If another guy says lyrics are meaningless, why is that person suddenly self-medicating?

4. And why is someone's opinion an open invitation to a personal attack?

The thread asks "How important are lyrics to YOU." That's a matter of personal opinion. Music is an art. There may be marketable and not marketable, melodic and dissonant, pop and rock, lyrical or meaningless, but there's no right or wrong. Nobody gets to perceive what's good for my ear except me.