How can i fix acoustic bleeding? (song inside for example)

[avalonpress]

okay so i recorded this in 1 take of my friend.

2 mics,
1 vocal (neauman tlm 103)
1 GTR (sm57)

i can always re record it, but lets say if i couldn't re record it, how could i stop the bleeding when mixing?

the vocal mic was in front of his face, he was sitting on a stool, and the sm 57 was pointed diriectley at the guitar.

anyways we had to record it real quick.. anyways the mic that was recording the guitar picked up his vocals SOO MUCH, where as the vocal mic picked up the guitar only a little bit.

are there any plugins i can put on the guitar to eliminate some vocals when mixing?

and for future reference how can i avoid bleeding?
turn the gain down on the sm 57 so it picks up less? or what?

Avalon-Press dot com SLASH EasyLive.mp3

 

[ecktronic]

To minimize bleed in all recordings, record at 24 bit and keep the pre amp gain to a minimum.
Dont be too concerned about getting a small signal, as this is ok at 24 bit. The less pre amp gain then the less the mic will pick up, butremember the source (guitar) is the same level, so the bleed is reduced.

Eck

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Once recorded, a lot depends upon the volume difference between the guitar and the bleed on the guitar track. If the vocal is coming thorugh pretty loud, there's not a whole lot that can be cleanly and surgically done. you can use volume automation to mute the track when the guitar is silent, but that may not sound that great and probably won't rid you of a whole lot of vocal.

If the guitar is noticably louder than the bleed most of the time, then I'd apply some dynamic expansion to push the vocals even lower in volume, followed by a low level gate to try and gate it out when the guitar is silent.

Just about every NLE comes witha Dynamics Processor plug for the dynamics expansion, and a gate. If you want a really great sounding compressor/expander plug that would be great for this, check out the Dynamizer from Roger Nichols Digital.

As far as avoiding this in the future, take advantage of the polar patterns on the mics and angle them away from each other somewhat, if possible. This can change the response characteristis a little, especially on the 57; so a small repositioning might be in order as well when you do that.

You can also use a figure 8 mic on the guitar, pointed so that it's null is pointed towards the singer's mouth. What's nice about this is not only the extreme side rejection of the figure 8 mic, but you then can set up a cardioid in the null and have a natural-sounding M/S stereo setup.

Either way, I'd prefer to embrace the bleed rather than try to fight it. Go for a natural stereo spread rather than two surgically isolated tracks. Using that M/S setup above is nice. If you don't have access to a fig-8 mic, then a simple near-coincident stereo pair set up on a vertical axis can work very well also. Depending upon the performer and guitar, it may not be a perfectally symmetrical pair like usual, but still a stereo pair nonetheless.

Gaining down on the guitar mic pre will only force you to gain back up in the box when mixing.

G.

 

[pandamonk]

Record them separately, lol

 

[themusicblogger]

How about acoustical isolation? I had the exact same problem when recording a song recently. I wanted to re-do vocals, but couldn't do it because the guitar track picked up a bit of the vocals. What about plugging in the guitar? Oh..i'm guessing you don't have anywhere to plug it in? What about recording guitar first, have someone sing at the same time to keep the beat, but have them on the other side of the room...lol :|

 

[chessrock]

To minimize bleed in all recordings, record at 24 bit and keep the pre amp gain to a minimum.
Dont be too concerned about getting a small signal, as this is ok at 24 bit. The less pre amp gain then the less the mic will pick up, butremember the source (guitar) is the same level, so the bleed is reduced.

I think you just made my brain hurt.

 

[BRIEFCASEMANX]

To minimize bleed in all recordings, record at 24 bit and keep the pre amp gain to a minimum.
Dont be too concerned about getting a small signal, as this is ok at 24 bit. The less pre amp gain then the less the mic will pick up, butremember the source (guitar) is the same level, so the bleed is reduced.

Eck

As I understand it, the preamp gain has nothing to do with what the mic picks up. The preamp goes after the microphone.

 

[faderbug]

To minimize bleed in all recordings, record at 24 bit and keep the pre amp gain to a minimum.
Dont be too concerned about getting a small signal, as this is ok at 24 bit. The less pre amp gain then the less the mic will pick up, butremember the source (guitar) is the same level, so the bleed is reduced.

Eck

you may have million dollar ears but what's between them isn't worth a penny.

 

[mixsit]

...The less pre amp gain then the less the mic will pick up, butremember the source (guitar) is the same level, so the bleed is reduced.

Put it another way. The less pre amp gain the less the mic will pick up. stop.
Gain is independent of the relative levels.
Yes?

 

[mixsit]

... anyways the mic that was recording the guitar picked up his vocals SOO MUCH, where as the vocal mic picked up the guitar only a little bit.

You might try reversing polarity on one track and sliding the guitar forward so the vocal is more aligned on the two tracks. I've not tried this but it could at least open up a different set of compromises.
At worst you'd likely be trading off varying flavors of comb filtering (which is in there anyway) as you slide in time and re balance the two's levels.

 

[ecktronic]

I think you just made my brain hurt.

I might not be the best at explaining things.
The less pre amp gain, the less background noise is picked up, and if the source doesn't change volume then that means a cleaner recording with less noise.

Eck

 

[ecktronic]

As I understand it, the preamp gain has nothing to do with what the mic picks up. The preamp goes after the microphone.

Think of the pre-amp as a thing that sucks sound from the mic into your recorder. The more pre amp gain the more volume it sucks. So when the source stays the same, and you bring down the pre-amp gain, then you get less noise in your recordings.

It works. Ive used this method quite a bit for recording vocals.
Although not the best fix, as Its obvisouly best to fix the room first.

Try it.
Eck

 

[mixsit]

I might not be the best at explaining things.
The less pre amp gain, the less background noise is picked up, and if the source doesn't change volume then that means a cleaner recording with less noise.

Eck

So you are still saying that one sound in the room stays the same and some other sound gets turned down?

Think about that again, come back.

 

[Gandalf]

So you are still saying that one sound in the room stays the same and some other sound gets turned down?

Think about that again, come back.

Indeed, you're turning down the gain on BOTH signals, the vox gets quieter, but so does the guitar......

The relative volumes stay the same

 

[flatfinger]

Buy a heil or a smb5 or a RE-20, eat the mic , say good buy to room reflections , set the gain how you like , call it a day!

 

[flatfinger]

and for future reference how can i avoid bleeding?
turn the gain down on the sm 57 so it picks up less? or what?

Use a figure 8 one capsule faces up twoards performers head , the other down at the guitar.

 

[ecktronic]

So you are still saying that one sound in the room stays the same and some other sound gets turned down?

Think about that again, come back.

Well the closer a sound is to the mic, the more it gets picked up.
When the gain on the pre is down its exagurated so that th close source gets picked up more than the background noise.
Sounds right to me but could be wrong.

Eck

 

[faderbug]

you may have million dollar ears but what's between them isn't worth a penny.

i knew in advance you were gonna give me neg feedback for this remark ectronic, next time also actualy sign your name ok?

but it doesn't matter, your suggestion is so stupid i just can't believe it!

 

[flatfinger]

Well the closer a sound is to the mic, the more it gets picked up.
When the gain on the pre is down its exagurated so that th close source gets picked up more than the background noise.
Sounds right to me but could be wrong.

Eck

Yes , there is a ratio of the sound you want to record (direct) and the other sounds you don't neccesarily want , but controlling that is usually a function of mic choice and placement.
As others have so charmingly pointed out , gain is gain.

Some condensors are like FBI spying on the mafia , picking up stuff from a mile away!
other mics are better at off-axis rejection or have a better pattern for avoiding Bleed (hyper-cadioid) .
Of course , there are a slew of other variables but there is a reason why allot of guitars a basses are recorded D.I. and re-amped later on. There are lots of cats in studios hating the headphone cups chaffing there ears too!! Bleed is one of those pesky thing you gotta deal with!! Thats why dude precceding said sometimes it's eaisier to just work with it sometimes.

 

[ecktronic]

i knew in advance you were gonna give me neg feedback for this remark ectronic, next time also actualy sign your name ok?

but it doesn't matter, your suggestion is so stupid i just can't believe it!

Id of hoped you knew I was going to give you red.
If you insult someone to that extent then expect to see red.
I didnt leave my name out as a way of hiding myself, kinda obvious it was gona be me.

Eck