witzendoz
Senior Member
Egg cartons again................sigh!
grimtraveller
If only for a moment.....
Egg cartons again................sigh!
They're actually great for studios......
if you have a fridge in them that doesn't come with purpose built egg trays.
W
Weasel9992
New member
They're actually great for studios......if you have a fridge in them that doesn't come with purpose built egg trays.
That was great...
Frank
frederic
New member
Let me try to help here by explaining a few things.
Sound is just energy, energy that vibrates air molecules that happens to be in a range that your eardrums can vibrate to, and in turn transmit into your brain.
Sound saves, light waves, radio waves, it's all the same stuff - energy, just at different frequences - which is why you hear sound waves but can't see them - and can see light but can't hear it.
Sound, like water, will gladly fill the space it has available to it.
There are two aspects of sound control useful in studios. The first is sound isolation and the second is sound absorption.
Simply put, sound isolation is basically keeping sound in one room and not allowing it to pass into another.
So to understand how sound gets from one room to another will then allow you to understand how to stop it.
Sound is just vibrations, so if the air is shared between two rooms, sound can pass through.
If the rooms do not share air, but share structure (walls, glass windows, etc), those items can vibrate passing the sound from one air chamber to another.
If you close all your windows and you can hear your neighbor's dog barking, either you have an "air leak" or the dog's barking is vibrating material in your home (drywall, glass, whatever), and those materials are passing the sound. In most homes it's probably both actually.
So to achieve true sound isolation, you have to eliminate both paths of sound transmission - air leaks and forms energy conversion (sound --> wall --> sound).
There are only two methods to achieve sound isolation that I know of, and they're often necessary to be used together:
1. Increase mass
2. Suspension.
Increasing mass just means making the room to be isolation out of materials that are physically heavier, denser, etc. An ordinary home window transmits outside sounds very well - even closed you can hear your dogs barking. Yet, if you stand in the lobby of a "corporate" building and look outside, you can't hear the people outside who are talking while smoking, nor the cars zooming by, and in some buildings you can't even hear emergency vehicles! That's sound isolation through mass - the glass in corporate buildings is far thicker, heavier, and actually constructed differently. This applies to walls, floors, ceilings as well as glass windows.
The thicker and heavier the materials are, the less sound energy can vibrate them.
Suspension is often a hard concept to understand because most of us do not construct suspended rooms. But, all this means is that the room to be soundproofed is fully suspended by some means that doesn't transmit sound - generally rubber blocks are used because rubber is a terrible for sound transmission - this is why most luxury cars have rubber bushings (springs!) between the body of the car and the chassis - and in turn why they are very quiet inside as compared to a car 1/5th it's price - the extra rubber.
So lets put these concepts together:
for true sound isolation, you need to build the room out of heavy, dense materials, keep it air-tight, and suspend it in some way that does not transmit sound.
---
Sound absorption, which is what most of us focus on, and that's treating the sound waves inside a given space so that it doesn't reflect on the walls, ceilings, and objects in the room if there are any. This is different than sound proofing, which is keeping the sound out, or in, depending on the purpose of the room.
Sound absorption, regardless of material, shape, brand, or what have you, works the very same way conception - the sound waves (energy) comes in, and the sound waves (energy) does not leave.
These devices do this by creating friction for the sound wave. Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, and only converted from one form to another, the sound waves are being converted, by friction, to heat.
That's it, that's all there is too it on a high level.
Now, different frequencies have different wavelengths and different amounts of energy for a given "volume". Bass frequencies at 120db have much more energy than high frequencies at 120db. Bass frequencies also have longer waves than high frequencies, measured in feet. Rooms, coincidentally, are also measured in feet. Generate a frequency that has the same wavelenth as your monitor-to-back wall dimension, and wow, that's going to hurt your ears real fast.
These two things together is why high frequencies are very easy to slow down, stop and convert to heat - less energy to start with and the waveforms are far smaller than absorbers structure whether it be bubbles, pockets, or strands.
Bass frequencies are the tougher ones for the very same reasons - and that's why foam-based bass aborbers tend to be far larger/thicker than foam-based wall treatments. Bass frequencies also tend to "collect" in a sense in corners, nooks, and behind equipment (your monitors!).
Treating bass frequencies requires a lot more than an egg crate stapled to the wall - by itself this does nothing.
This is why it's often suggested to construct recording rooms that aren't rectangular (or square) - because as the bass frequencies are reflected, the non-square dimensions will cause the sound energy to change direction - this helps prevents "dead spots" and "hot spots" where the waves cancel each other out or overlap - making it appear as if there is no, or twice the sound energy in that spot. It also weakens the sound wave by causing it to change direction a bit...
So, hopefully this "theory lesson" helped someone. How far you take it, is entirely up to you.
But at least we have access to knowledge, math and physics, whereas 25+ years ago it was all guesswork and copy-cat behavior.
Like I said, way back when I lined an entire studio with egg crates. I bought into the the BS too.
Sound is just energy, energy that vibrates air molecules that happens to be in a range that your eardrums can vibrate to, and in turn transmit into your brain.
Sound saves, light waves, radio waves, it's all the same stuff - energy, just at different frequences - which is why you hear sound waves but can't see them - and can see light but can't hear it.
Sound, like water, will gladly fill the space it has available to it.
There are two aspects of sound control useful in studios. The first is sound isolation and the second is sound absorption.
Simply put, sound isolation is basically keeping sound in one room and not allowing it to pass into another.
So to understand how sound gets from one room to another will then allow you to understand how to stop it.
Sound is just vibrations, so if the air is shared between two rooms, sound can pass through.
If the rooms do not share air, but share structure (walls, glass windows, etc), those items can vibrate passing the sound from one air chamber to another.
If you close all your windows and you can hear your neighbor's dog barking, either you have an "air leak" or the dog's barking is vibrating material in your home (drywall, glass, whatever), and those materials are passing the sound. In most homes it's probably both actually.
So to achieve true sound isolation, you have to eliminate both paths of sound transmission - air leaks and forms energy conversion (sound --> wall --> sound).
There are only two methods to achieve sound isolation that I know of, and they're often necessary to be used together:
1. Increase mass
2. Suspension.
Increasing mass just means making the room to be isolation out of materials that are physically heavier, denser, etc. An ordinary home window transmits outside sounds very well - even closed you can hear your dogs barking. Yet, if you stand in the lobby of a "corporate" building and look outside, you can't hear the people outside who are talking while smoking, nor the cars zooming by, and in some buildings you can't even hear emergency vehicles! That's sound isolation through mass - the glass in corporate buildings is far thicker, heavier, and actually constructed differently. This applies to walls, floors, ceilings as well as glass windows.
The thicker and heavier the materials are, the less sound energy can vibrate them.
Suspension is often a hard concept to understand because most of us do not construct suspended rooms. But, all this means is that the room to be soundproofed is fully suspended by some means that doesn't transmit sound - generally rubber blocks are used because rubber is a terrible for sound transmission - this is why most luxury cars have rubber bushings (springs!) between the body of the car and the chassis - and in turn why they are very quiet inside as compared to a car 1/5th it's price - the extra rubber.
So lets put these concepts together:
for true sound isolation, you need to build the room out of heavy, dense materials, keep it air-tight, and suspend it in some way that does not transmit sound.
---
Sound absorption, which is what most of us focus on, and that's treating the sound waves inside a given space so that it doesn't reflect on the walls, ceilings, and objects in the room if there are any. This is different than sound proofing, which is keeping the sound out, or in, depending on the purpose of the room.
Sound absorption, regardless of material, shape, brand, or what have you, works the very same way conception - the sound waves (energy) comes in, and the sound waves (energy) does not leave.
These devices do this by creating friction for the sound wave. Since energy is neither created nor destroyed, and only converted from one form to another, the sound waves are being converted, by friction, to heat.
That's it, that's all there is too it on a high level.
Now, different frequencies have different wavelengths and different amounts of energy for a given "volume". Bass frequencies at 120db have much more energy than high frequencies at 120db. Bass frequencies also have longer waves than high frequencies, measured in feet. Rooms, coincidentally, are also measured in feet. Generate a frequency that has the same wavelenth as your monitor-to-back wall dimension, and wow, that's going to hurt your ears real fast.
These two things together is why high frequencies are very easy to slow down, stop and convert to heat - less energy to start with and the waveforms are far smaller than absorbers structure whether it be bubbles, pockets, or strands.
Bass frequencies are the tougher ones for the very same reasons - and that's why foam-based bass aborbers tend to be far larger/thicker than foam-based wall treatments. Bass frequencies also tend to "collect" in a sense in corners, nooks, and behind equipment (your monitors!).
Treating bass frequencies requires a lot more than an egg crate stapled to the wall - by itself this does nothing.
This is why it's often suggested to construct recording rooms that aren't rectangular (or square) - because as the bass frequencies are reflected, the non-square dimensions will cause the sound energy to change direction - this helps prevents "dead spots" and "hot spots" where the waves cancel each other out or overlap - making it appear as if there is no, or twice the sound energy in that spot. It also weakens the sound wave by causing it to change direction a bit...
So, hopefully this "theory lesson" helped someone. How far you take it, is entirely up to you.
But at least we have access to knowledge, math and physics, whereas 25+ years ago it was all guesswork and copy-cat behavior.
Like I said, way back when I lined an entire studio with egg crates. I bought into the the BS too.
T
The Great Cobb
New member
hm
There are a lot of people in this thread who have forgotten that men with way less than professional recording methods/equipment have created artistic works far superior to anything they have ever created or ever will create. These are facts. I dont know about everyone else, but im tired of hearing overproduced "professional" garbage fluff music. Burn it down. Best records i heard in the past few years were nearly all home recorded. Some even on 4 track cassette. Mistakes left in, no autotune. Imperfect sounds, totally untreated room. A talented human being will always find a way to make what he has work for him. Some people spend a lifetime adopting proven professional techniques and never create 1 decent compelling work. So do what you feel. If you are a talented imaginative person, it will be obvious to the listener, whether your soundproofing is "professional" or not.
Never heard a cute 19 year old chick say "GOD I LUV THE SOUNDPROOFING IN THIS SONG!!!"
/thread over.
There are a lot of people in this thread who have forgotten that men with way less than professional recording methods/equipment have created artistic works far superior to anything they have ever created or ever will create. These are facts. I dont know about everyone else, but im tired of hearing overproduced "professional" garbage fluff music. Burn it down. Best records i heard in the past few years were nearly all home recorded. Some even on 4 track cassette. Mistakes left in, no autotune. Imperfect sounds, totally untreated room. A talented human being will always find a way to make what he has work for him. Some people spend a lifetime adopting proven professional techniques and never create 1 decent compelling work. So do what you feel. If you are a talented imaginative person, it will be obvious to the listener, whether your soundproofing is "professional" or not.
Never heard a cute 19 year old chick say "GOD I LUV THE SOUNDPROOFING IN THIS SONG!!!"
/thread over.
jhbrandt
Acoustic Design
I don't think you understand, Cobb.
I personally will not tell someone that it's OK to use something that is useless.
I will not be politically correct.
I am here to help and I shall continue.
Please give one (1) example of a great recording done in a shitty room. Just one, that's all we need.
Please - not some local thing or something obscure. No one here wants to be in a league with the obscure. The artists here that are building their own studios want to make HITS.
I can, however, relate to your point about using Digital vs. Analog or old equipment vs. new and improved... Mogami wire vs Old solid core Belden.. etc.
Some great hits were made in carpeted rooms... but they did have traps. If the same artist could do the exact same thing in a modern studio they would even do better.
Personally, I am not here to show off what I know. Some people are - I don't need that. I am only here to help people.
To the Newbies: Read as many threads on the topic of your choice. Check other sites like this. Get second opinions.... Study, Study, study! - If you intend to build it yourself. Otherwise hire a pro if it is a large project. You will save more than money.
There is no easy answer to most of this. Work at it.
Cheers,
John
I personally will not tell someone that it's OK to use something that is useless.
I will not be politically correct.
I am here to help and I shall continue.
Please give one (1) example of a great recording done in a shitty room. Just one, that's all we need.
Please - not some local thing or something obscure. No one here wants to be in a league with the obscure. The artists here that are building their own studios want to make HITS.
I can, however, relate to your point about using Digital vs. Analog or old equipment vs. new and improved... Mogami wire vs Old solid core Belden.. etc.
Some great hits were made in carpeted rooms... but they did have traps. If the same artist could do the exact same thing in a modern studio they would even do better.
Personally, I am not here to show off what I know. Some people are - I don't need that. I am only here to help people.
To the Newbies: Read as many threads on the topic of your choice. Check other sites like this. Get second opinions.... Study, Study, study! - If you intend to build it yourself. Otherwise hire a pro if it is a large project. You will save more than money.
There is no easy answer to most of this. Work at it.
Cheers,
John
acidrock
GO PACKERS!
I think the idea is,if you're going to spend the time to do something,do it right or don't do it at all.Otherwise you're just wasting your time.
Supercreep
Lizard People
Did they use egg cartons?
R
RAMI
Guest
And you've missed the point of this whole thread, all in the name of getting on your soap-box and airing out your itchy vagina.
You think people should be given the wrong advice just because it's "elitist" to tell them the truth???? You're an idiot.
frederic
New member
Every point you made Cobb is irrelevent.
People asked questions about soundproofing and sound treatments, and they were answered fairly well by myself and numerous others.
It doesn't matter whether you're building a $2M audio facility or cramming your gear into a walk-in closet - while the budget for acoustical control and treatments would be very different in these extreme cases, the concepts of acoustical control and treatments is the same as is the underlying math and physics involved.
A pro studio would hire an acoustical engineer to design the traps, clouds, and venting to be acoustically benefical to the space. The rest of us are more budget-minded, we instead by rockwool, 2x4's, cloth and a staple gun.
Not everyone wants to record in shitty spaces, and now that the whole magical aura of acoustical control can be explained, defined, and understood, no one has to.
People asked questions about soundproofing and sound treatments, and they were answered fairly well by myself and numerous others.
It doesn't matter whether you're building a $2M audio facility or cramming your gear into a walk-in closet - while the budget for acoustical control and treatments would be very different in these extreme cases, the concepts of acoustical control and treatments is the same as is the underlying math and physics involved.
A pro studio would hire an acoustical engineer to design the traps, clouds, and venting to be acoustically benefical to the space. The rest of us are more budget-minded, we instead by rockwool, 2x4's, cloth and a staple gun.
Not everyone wants to record in shitty spaces, and now that the whole magical aura of acoustical control can be explained, defined, and understood, no one has to.
Jeff_D
New member
"you must spread some rep..."
bunt
Hand-Crank Mixer
wow... I haven't been in here for a while... spent a month doing some tracking after I learned a bunch of stuff here, then spent 2 weeks in Florida to get warm, but it was freezing down there... came back all ready to do some minor room treatments, dropped in this forum today and read all this...
Rami, good to see you are making new friends!
Things I learned today:
Egg cartons are for eggs
Mattress foam is for sleeping on
Rami, good to see you are making new friends!
Things I learned today:
Egg cartons are for eggs
Mattress foam is for sleeping on