R
RFR
Well-known member
Thanks, but I'll take a break for a bit. Just finished wiring up a bunch of Canarre stuff. My eyes need a rest, those solder points for the Nuetriks connectors are tiny.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
Network patch bays rely on IDConns as do telephones and they are tiny. Many electronic devices use extremely small push connectors and prove reliable for decades.
I have a friendly running argument with a guitar amp tech over here about crimped, push connectors he hates them and I have never had a problem with them but HE sees a lot of crap and I don't and crap does not last.
You would expect the electrical systems in cars to be a problem with the vibration and water but crimp conns have hardly ever been a problem to me in 50years of motoring even when I did 80k a year for 30 years.
Most of the problems I had with "domestic" electronics over the years were with solder joints. We call 'em "dry" you say "cold"?
All things will fail if done badly.
Dave.
I have a friendly running argument with a guitar amp tech over here about crimped, push connectors he hates them and I have never had a problem with them but HE sees a lot of crap and I don't and crap does not last.
You would expect the electrical systems in cars to be a problem with the vibration and water but crimp conns have hardly ever been a problem to me in 50years of motoring even when I did 80k a year for 30 years.
Most of the problems I had with "domestic" electronics over the years were with solder joints. We call 'em "dry" you say "cold"?
All things will fail if done badly.
Dave.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I'm really not sure what point you are supporting....that soldering is bad or worse than crimped or screwed-on connections...???
There are connections that need to be removable because those parts will need at times to be dismantled or replaced...so of course push-on, screw-on connectors will be used.
Also, for ease of manufacturing, it's simpler/easier/cheaper to make a few PCBs (with *soldered* components), and then interconnect them with some ribbon cables...but that's not done because it's better than soldered connections.
One of the first suggestions for signal issues it to pull out and then re-seat the connectors and/or boards...why?...because it self-cleans the connectors and removes any oxidation that may have formed. That's done even in the most pro studios.
If you've never had to do that with any piece of audio gear...you are lucky.
Heck...even when your car sometimes is struggling to turn over...they tell you to check the cables for looseness and to clean off the green oxidation and crud. If they could be done as a soldered connection...you would never have that happen, but a battery is another part that has to be removed/replaced at some point...which is the reason push-on or screw-on connectors have to be used.
Sure...there are reasons non-soldered connection have to be used for a lot of things...but I've never heard anyone argue against soldering as the best connection method for the best signal flow...until now.
Anyway...YMMV...but I'll solder whenever that option is viable.
There are connections that need to be removable because those parts will need at times to be dismantled or replaced...so of course push-on, screw-on connectors will be used.
Also, for ease of manufacturing, it's simpler/easier/cheaper to make a few PCBs (with *soldered* components), and then interconnect them with some ribbon cables...but that's not done because it's better than soldered connections.
One of the first suggestions for signal issues it to pull out and then re-seat the connectors and/or boards...why?...because it self-cleans the connectors and removes any oxidation that may have formed. That's done even in the most pro studios.
If you've never had to do that with any piece of audio gear...you are lucky.
Heck...even when your car sometimes is struggling to turn over...they tell you to check the cables for looseness and to clean off the green oxidation and crud. If they could be done as a soldered connection...you would never have that happen, but a battery is another part that has to be removed/replaced at some point...which is the reason push-on or screw-on connectors have to be used.
Sure...there are reasons non-soldered connection have to be used for a lot of things...but I've never heard anyone argue against soldering as the best connection method for the best signal flow...until now.
Anyway...YMMV...but I'll solder whenever that option is viable.
J
Jesse A
New member
Reading this thread prompted me to share an excellent, yet very technical, article on the effects of cable on signal quality, in particular cable capacitance. I think you all may find it very interesting. The article was written by Jim Brown of Audio Systems Group. I hope you find it interesting.
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/CableCapacitance.pdf
http://audiosystemsgroup.com/CableCapacitance.pdf
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Oh, no argument about using solder versions for all my connectors...usually Neutrik. I learned my lesson on using cheap connectors. I just wanted to point out that some non-solder connections can be okay.
I'm weird but I actually enjoy sitting down with a mug of coffee, my favourite station on the radio and a pile of cables to make off.
I'm weird but I actually enjoy sitting down with a mug of coffee, my favourite station on the radio and a pile of cables to make off.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Good article and I know Jim Brown is always spot on techically. I've had dealings with him in the Theatre Sound User Group. However, it's worth saying that he's advocating using the right spec of proper quality cable. He's certainly NOT talking about the super expensive audiophile stuff that started this topic He'd be the first to criticise that sort of flim flam rubbish.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
I am not arguing against solder, merely saying that it is but one form of connection available and ALL types can be good or bad.
I know from experience that solder joints can fail over the years when subjected to vibration (power transformers, especially SMPSUs) and drying out when a component is run too close to its rating and the dry out.
Bad design, e.g. putting higher than rated current through a connector such as the heater circuit of a big amp shows failure of both the 6mm connector AND the PCB joint.
I am not familiar with the solderless jacks mentioned but whatever form of termination is used the intelligent application of Heat Shrink can add yet another layer of reliability.
Dave.
I know from experience that solder joints can fail over the years when subjected to vibration (power transformers, especially SMPSUs) and drying out when a component is run too close to its rating and the dry out.
Bad design, e.g. putting higher than rated current through a connector such as the heater circuit of a big amp shows failure of both the 6mm connector AND the PCB joint.
I am not familiar with the solderless jacks mentioned but whatever form of termination is used the intelligent application of Heat Shrink can add yet another layer of reliability.
Dave.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I don't mind soldering either. When I first got my current studio set up, I spent weeks, literally, just making studio snakes and soldering, soldering. I did like you...I had a table set up with all my tools, a TV in front of me, and a cup of coffee...and I would work on the snakes and watch TV at the same time...I thought I would never finish!
The only thing I don't like about soldering is that the smoke messes up my sinuses, and I'm all stuff up for days afterwards.
When I know I will be soldering a lot...I'll use a small fan to draw away the smoke. Not to mention, I still prefer to use the 60/40, so that smoke has some lead in it...but I've not gone mad yet.
Just a few days ago I swapped out and rewired some pickups on a couple of guitars...so I set up a work area right on my large kitchen table. I could watch TV , lay the guitars out, do my soldering...and even have a snack without moving too much.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
I don't disagree with that.
Sometimes the connection calls for crimping or whatever. I just always feel a bit more secure when I can dab some solder on a connection when possible.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Not to mention, I still prefer to use the 60/40, so that smoke has some lead in it...but I've not gone mad yet.
I think anyone who solders prefers 60/40. And sanity is over-rated.
Just a few days ago I swapped out and rewired some pickups on a couple of guitars...so I set up a work area right on my large kitchen table. I could watch TV , lay the guitars out, do my soldering...and even have a snack without moving too much.
I work exactly the same way here...except its a kitchen/diner. I do have a workshop but I prefer being closer to the coffee pot! Fortunately I have a very tolerant wife.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
There is actually very little lead in 60/40 fumes since this is elemental lead and not the compound they used to put in petrol.
The experts that came to my factory told me that lead free solder fumes are in fact MORE harmful than the old stuff as the flux is more aggressive.
Incidentally, the same company used to crimp AND solder 6mm earth receptacles, sort of "belts and braces" they thought. In fact it is quite a tricky thing to do and make a good joint and yet not allow solder to run into the connector and render it useless. The people (mostly ladies) who had this skill became fewer and I was asked to do a simple tensile test. Soldered or nay, the failure was the wire!
The earth leads performed equally well as RF bonds tested in a Faraday cage and with a £40,000 analyser.
I repeat, whether you are dealing with car electrics (I never had battery problems. My uncle was the Dagernite agent for Northampton and I was taught how to look after them) or hearing aids, good is good and crap is crap, soldered or not.
Dave.
The experts that came to my factory told me that lead free solder fumes are in fact MORE harmful than the old stuff as the flux is more aggressive.
Incidentally, the same company used to crimp AND solder 6mm earth receptacles, sort of "belts and braces" they thought. In fact it is quite a tricky thing to do and make a good joint and yet not allow solder to run into the connector and render it useless. The people (mostly ladies) who had this skill became fewer and I was asked to do a simple tensile test. Soldered or nay, the failure was the wire!
The earth leads performed equally well as RF bonds tested in a Faraday cage and with a £40,000 analyser.
I repeat, whether you are dealing with car electrics (I never had battery problems. My uncle was the Dagernite agent for Northampton and I was taught how to look after them) or hearing aids, good is good and crap is crap, soldered or not.
Dave.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Whether it's the small amount of lead or the flux, it irritates my sinuses...but I still prefer the 60/40 over the non-toxic crap.
I thought they were going to completely phase out the 60/40 awhile back, so I picked up a bunch of it...but just recently I saw it's still available at my local Radio Shack.
I thought they were going to completely phase out the 60/40 awhile back, so I picked up a bunch of it...but just recently I saw it's still available at my local Radio Shack.
E
ecc83
Well-known member
I think the biggest concern with "electronic lead" was the huge amount of broken gear that goes to landfill? I once asked at the aforementioned company if the PCB trimmings, about 10% of each board composed of copper and lead, could be recycled? "Not worth the bother" was the response. Multiply that out to all the electronics manfctrs and that is millions of tons of hard won metals going to waste.
At least NOW they are not binning lead!
Dave.
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C
caldrenfitz
New member
Even if the claims of the cable being so vastly superior were true, it wouldn't make much difference unless you have vastly superior equipment sending and receiving the signal. As a bad cable can make good equipment sound bad, and low quality equipment will sound bad even through a great cable.
Ignore the over-priced crazy stuff, is that cable going to sell your recordings?
I make most of the cables in our studio, using mogami or canare cable, and Amp or nuetrik heads, but as was mentioned, you don't need to buy the nicest ends if they're just sitting in the back of some gear.
The power of good sound lies more in the ability to mix, and know how to use what you have, than to have the best gear and no idea or ability to utilize it.
Ignore the over-priced crazy stuff, is that cable going to sell your recordings?
I make most of the cables in our studio, using mogami or canare cable, and Amp or nuetrik heads, but as was mentioned, you don't need to buy the nicest ends if they're just sitting in the back of some gear.
The power of good sound lies more in the ability to mix, and know how to use what you have, than to have the best gear and no idea or ability to utilize it.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Actually, the power of good sound lies the most in and comes the easiest from having both good equipment and the ability to use it. No reason to exclude or avoid either.
R
RFR
Well-known member
Thats too simple There just HAS to be some magic voodoo........somewhere
There just HAS to be some magic voodoo........somewhere
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
You've discovered the secret.
My wife is a pagan witch (13th generation). I make three metre XLR cables for mics which she then puts a "sound great and have a hit" spell onto.
I normally keep them for myself but, if you keep it quiet, I could sell you one for $15,000 plus postage.
My wife is a pagan witch (13th generation). I make three metre XLR cables for mics which she then puts a "sound great and have a hit" spell onto.
I normally keep them for myself but, if you keep it quiet, I could sell you one for $15,000 plus postage.
R
RFR
Well-known member
Oh that's very generous of you.
But at that price couldn't you throw in free shipping?
But at that price couldn't you throw in free shipping?
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Well...seeing as you're an HR regular...okay!
S
SysExJohn
New member
Just to add my 2d (or two cents, if you will).
Many years ago I worked in the aircraft industry in the field of electronics.
In wiring up aircraft with cable lengths going from cockpit to tailplane in large commercial airliners, in the main we used crimp connectors NOT soldered connections.
A properly crimped connector, i.e. with the receptacle designed for a specific SWG/AWG wire, and using that gauge of wire and a crimping tool correctly set for that gauge too, the result was a connection of outstanding performance. Typically of lower resistance than a well soldered joint but, more importantly, outlasting a soldered joint, under similar vibration and stress, by many, many times.
The crimping tools we used were much like the mechanism inside certain torque wrenches used for tightening bolts on a cylinder head.
I think they used a kind of knee joint that gives under a certain preset pressure.
They were taken away from us on a regular basis for testing and replaced on a yearly basis as I recall.
But then people's lives are at stake if a joint fails in flight.
Silver plating makes little difference to audio cables as, at audio frequencies, the signal travels within the wire not so much on the surface.
It does make a difference when talking RF.
To make a slight difference solid silver would be necessary.
Copper and silver have a very similar resistance, with silver just coming out ahead.
Good cables (not necessarily exotic ones) often use copper of greater than 99% purity anyway.
Gold plating of connectors is only useful to guard against corrosion (gold is of higher resistance than copper), but BOTH plug and socket must be similarly plated.
Plating just one of the surfaces is largely ineffectual.
Its primary purpose is to prevent deterioration of connectors that remain in place for extended periods, as is often the case with Hi-Fi.
For live use, connectors with an extremely hard yet conductive surface are best as with Neutrik TS, TSR and XLR.
As the joints are remade every gig the wiping action of insertion and removal cleans the joint.
The construction of the cable (e.g. good screening) and its capacitance have more effect on its performance than resistance, but not at audio frequencies, unless you're a bat!
The insulating jacket can be shown to have some effect on performance too, but again is unlikely at audio frequencies.
Lastly, for all those "subjective", "golden ears" people.
Your ears can be fooled into hearing what isn't there at all.
Take a good look at this site about the McGurk Effect, and be honest.
McGurk Effect Audio-Video Illusion | Mighty Optical Illusions.
We only think we hear what we hear.
Regards,
John.
Many years ago I worked in the aircraft industry in the field of electronics.
In wiring up aircraft with cable lengths going from cockpit to tailplane in large commercial airliners, in the main we used crimp connectors NOT soldered connections.
A properly crimped connector, i.e. with the receptacle designed for a specific SWG/AWG wire, and using that gauge of wire and a crimping tool correctly set for that gauge too, the result was a connection of outstanding performance. Typically of lower resistance than a well soldered joint but, more importantly, outlasting a soldered joint, under similar vibration and stress, by many, many times.
The crimping tools we used were much like the mechanism inside certain torque wrenches used for tightening bolts on a cylinder head.
I think they used a kind of knee joint that gives under a certain preset pressure.
They were taken away from us on a regular basis for testing and replaced on a yearly basis as I recall.
But then people's lives are at stake if a joint fails in flight.
Silver plating makes little difference to audio cables as, at audio frequencies, the signal travels within the wire not so much on the surface.
It does make a difference when talking RF.
To make a slight difference solid silver would be necessary.
Copper and silver have a very similar resistance, with silver just coming out ahead.
Good cables (not necessarily exotic ones) often use copper of greater than 99% purity anyway.
Gold plating of connectors is only useful to guard against corrosion (gold is of higher resistance than copper), but BOTH plug and socket must be similarly plated.
Plating just one of the surfaces is largely ineffectual.
Its primary purpose is to prevent deterioration of connectors that remain in place for extended periods, as is often the case with Hi-Fi.
For live use, connectors with an extremely hard yet conductive surface are best as with Neutrik TS, TSR and XLR.
As the joints are remade every gig the wiping action of insertion and removal cleans the joint.
The construction of the cable (e.g. good screening) and its capacitance have more effect on its performance than resistance, but not at audio frequencies, unless you're a bat!
The insulating jacket can be shown to have some effect on performance too, but again is unlikely at audio frequencies.
Lastly, for all those "subjective", "golden ears" people.
Your ears can be fooled into hearing what isn't there at all.
Take a good look at this site about the McGurk Effect, and be honest.
McGurk Effect Audio-Video Illusion | Mighty Optical Illusions.
We only think we hear what we hear.
Regards,
John.