Have a question concerning ribbon mics y'all

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halfred

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I'm interested in experimenting with ribbom mics, probably 48v phantom power type. Since I have to record 5-7 feet out from 7' Steinway B in my living room, I'm concerned about noise (hiss). In most of the ribbon spec, ribbons seem to have a higher noise floor. I've been experimenting with NT1A's and what I like best about them is that they are basically noise free, even with my microtrack preamp (I'm thinking of getting a Grace Lunatec v3 to use as front, however.) One ribbon I'm particularly interested in is the Sonotronics Apollo. Thanks for feedback in advance.
 
Interesting Mic! Never heard of them.... About how much does this cost? Trying to figure out your price range...
 
I've heard a modded apex 205 that sounded alright on piano.

For $1K-ish you might as well get a Royer SF12 or something.
http://www.royerlabs.com/SF-12.html
(oh wait, that one's almost $3K)

Cascade Fatheads are decent for the price. I'm not sure how they'd do on piano though. They sound pretty stellar on Brasses though. Or at least the samples of them do.

I'd love to use ribbons, but they're really too frail if you need mobility or think long term. Not that I've ventured that way yet, but it might make the used ribbon market a bit stale. So if you don't get one that you absolutely love, you might be stuck with it. And at $800+, that's a rough honeymoon. Unless you're a DIY type who likes making ribbons and such.

Ribbons require a lot of gain, which is where most of the hiss comes into play. You really need a top end preamp to do them justice. Or a really loud source.
 
Shadow_7 said:
I've heard a modded apex 205 that sounded alright on piano.

For $1K-ish you might as well get a Royer SF12 or something.
http://www.royerlabs.com/SF-12.html
(oh wait, that one's almost $3K)

Cascade Fatheads are decent for the price. I'm not sure how they'd do on piano though. They sound pretty stellar on Brasses though. Or at least the samples of them do.

I'd love to use ribbons, but they're really too frail if you need mobility or think long term. Not that I've ventured that way yet, but it might make the used ribbon market a bit stale. So if you don't get one that you absolutely love, you might be stuck with it. And at $800+, that's a rough honeymoon. Unless you're a DIY type who likes making ribbons and such.

Ribbons require a lot of gain, which is where most of the hiss comes into play. You really need a top end preamp to do them justice. Or a really loud source.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. Yeah, I probably should abstain, if don't like, won't be able to unload. Can't really afford that, thanks for reminding me.
Think I'll stick with what I have for now. I know a lot of people turn their noses up at the Rodes mics. Of course I don't have much experience or much to compare them to, but I like what I hear and I guess that matters most. Thinking of unloading my new matched pair of NT1A's to fund NT2A's instead as it will give me a lot more options to play around with. A big plus for the Rodes is no hiss or noise whatsoever, even at a distance of 7' and running into the Microtrack preamps. I imagine they will sound a lot better with the Grace Lunatec V3 which I plan on buying in a few weeks if I can bring myself to shell out the $1500!!:eek:
 
You could always rent. If you live near an established studio. Rent the gear or rent the time. It might help you identify what might work or not, without having a closet full of duds that you can't offload.

In the meantime, was the the sputnik or pulsars that were supposed to be killer bang for the buck. I don't actually have any of these mics, I just hear a lot of good things about them. Piano is needy, in that it's a pretty static instrument. i.e. cannot compensate for the mic/gear. You might try the pulsar II's.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/PulsarII.html

I know it's M-Audio, but many have commented on how these are the M-Audio home run's. Hmmm. 134SPL limit. That's nice to know. A lot of the issues I've had are mics with low SPL ratings. It might not mean much, but if you move in close for the kill, even a bottle cap can put out high SPLs at point blank range.
 
You could get yourself a pair of Golden Age ribbon mics for that price. That's it in my Avatar.
It's my favourite microphone to date.
http://www.recording-microphones.co.uk/Budget-ribbon-microphone.shtml
I also have the Nady RSM 8A (Just got it) and haven't really worked with it yet but I think there may be a little noise issue (the hiss you were talking about) which I can solve with a preamp.
http://www.wwbw.com/Nady-RSM-8A-Ribbon-Microphone-580009-i1432648.wwbw
An excellent deal at the price.
 
Shadow_7 said:
You could always rent. If you live near an established studio. Rent the gear or rent the time. It might help you identify what might work or not, without having a closet full of duds that you can't offload.

In the meantime, was the the sputnik or pulsars that were supposed to be killer bang for the buck. I don't actually have any of these mics, I just hear a lot of good things about them. Piano is needy, in that it's a pretty static instrument. i.e. cannot compensate for the mic/gear. You might try the pulsar II's.

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/PulsarII.html

I know it's M-Audio, but many have commented on how these are the M-Audio home run's. Hmmm. 134SPL limit. That's nice to know. A lot of the issues I've had are mics with low SPL ratings. It might not mean much, but if you move in close for the kill, even a bottle cap can put out high SPLs at point blank range.
Click to expand...

Most of the rentals in my area are stuff for conventions and even though it might save me in the long run if I found the right rental place if it exists, I hate to put any money into anything I don't own. I have the Pulsars, first pair I bought based on reviews. They sound pretty damned good to me, I've heard more than one audio engineer say they were more than a little suprised about the capability of these mics. I'm waiting to buy a Grace Lunatec V3 to try them with that. I had been using them with the microtrack and I don't think they work too well with the cheap preamps--too hissy, but great sound in ORTF. The Rode NT1Aa's however, sound great with the microtrack, and shouold sound even better with the Grace L, I would think--I never used preamps before other than the Microtrack. I was advised to invest my money in high quality preamps rather than my original plan to but a high-end field recorder because it's easier for me to figure out how to use. It may be hard to believe, but it's going to be a challenge for me to coordinate the Microtrack, preamps, and mics.
 
Jim Lad said:
You could get yourself a pair of Golden Age ribbon mics for that price. That's it in my Avatar.
It's my favourite microphone to date.
http://www.recording-microphones.co.uk/Budget-ribbon-microphone.shtml
I also have the Nady RSM 8A (Just got it) and haven't really worked with it yet but I think there may be a little noise issue (the hiss you were talking about) which I can solve with a preamp.
http://www.wwbw.com/Nady-RSM-8A-Ribbon-Microphone-580009-i1432648.wwbw
An excellent deal at the price.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I'll look into that.
 
Jim Lad said:
Should add that "Sontronics" is the proper spelling for those who wanted to Google it.
http://www.google.com/products?sour...esult_group&ct=title&resnum=5&ved=0CCMQrQQwBA
My recollection is that it didn't do too well in reviews but I'd be looking at it as a vocalist mic. and would form my opinion with that in mind.
If I ever save up for a high end it would probably be a Blue Woodpecker.
Click to expand...

For the time being I've abandoned the idea of ribbon mics. They seem to fussy for a beginner home recorder like myselfand I'm too "all over the map"--like a kid in a candy store without too much $$$. I'll keep experimenting with LDC's and MDC's (my Pulsars.) I'm trying to sell my matched pair NT1A's so thet I can buy two NT2A's as I haven't experimented with Fig 8's or omni's yet. Haven't tried SDC's yet but I don't think I would like them as I'm trying to get a "fat" sound, not so much "focused and detailed." This is in part to compensate for the fact that I am recording in my medium sized living room, not a great studio, or concert hall:rolleyes:
 
halfred said:
I'm too "all over the map"--like a kid in a candy store without too much $$$.
Click to expand...

You are! In fact, I have very hard time following your ideas and reasoning behind them. You've got here some good and professional advices, but it seems you are doing things just randomly, without any clear concept behind them.

You desided for Grace--it is an exellent piece of equipment, but may I ask you, WHY? What would you think justifies that?

You haven't tried yet any of your mics and already desided you want to sell your NT1A's. Why???

You want to get NT2A's. WHY???

You don't think the SDC will work for you. WHY?... may I ask.

If you are after "that" fat sound what makes you think that ribbons are fussy. WHY???

I gave you a list of mics which would work better than others on piano. Instead you were looking at Apollo and some other, otherwise fine mics. But may I ask you, WHY???

Before going any further, you should understand one thing, to make a sucessful recording is not about equpment, but it is all about
1) Performance itself,
2) Quality of the instrument
3) Acoustics of the room,
4) Microphone position,
5) Microphone technique,
and the last:
6) Microphone and equipment quality.

... strictly in that order.

In other words, you can make EXELLENT recordings with M-Audio AudioBuddy, Behringer SRC2496 converter, MicrotrackII and some unmodified Chinese mics, for total budget well under $500. On the other hand, you can very well make louzy recordings with multi thousand $$$, state of the art equipment.

Hopefully, it was helpfull.

Best, M
 
Marik said:
You are! In fact, I have very hard time following your ideas and reasoning behind them. You've got here some good and professional advices, but it seems you are doing things just randomly, without any clear concept behind them.

You desided for Grace--it is an exellent piece of equipment, but may I ask you, WHY? What would you think justifies that?

You haven't tried yet any of your mics and already desided you want to sell your NT1A's. Why???

You want to get NT2A's. WHY???

You don't think the SDC will work for you. WHY?... may I ask.

If you are after "that" fat sound what makes you think that ribbons are fussy. WHY???

I gave you a list of mics which would work better than others on piano. Instead you were looking at Apollo and some other, otherwise fine mics. But may I ask you, WHY???

Before going any further, you should understand one thing, to make a sucessful recording is not about equpment, but it is all about
1) Performance itself,
2) Quality of the instrument
3) Acoustics of the room,
4) Microphone position,
5) Microphone technique,
and the last:
6) Microphone and equipment quality.

... strictly in that order.

In other words, you can make EXELLENT recordings with M-Audio AudioBuddy, Behringer SRC2496 converter, MicrotrackII and some unmodified Chinese mics, for total budget well under $500. On the other hand, you can very well make louzy recordings with multi thousand $$$, state of the art equipment.

Hopefully, it was helpful.

Best, M
Click to expand...

THANKS MARIK!!---I NEEDED THAT! LOL I AM LAUGHING MY ASS OFF HERE--TEARS ARE RUNNUNG DOWN MY FACE!!!

OK, I'm a touch "mad", but don't hold it against me, my grandparents were actors in the Russian theater!

First off:

1) Performance itself,--This I know for sure

2) Quality of the instrument--This I have

3) Acoustics of the room,---This I have no choice but to experiment and see what sounds best

4) Microphone position,--- This I was finding out until my microtrack broke

5) Microphone technique, --This, I have used a few techniques and heard the difference. Others I haven't tried yet (recorder being repaired)
and the last:

6) Microphone and equipment quality.---This is what I go nuts thinking about and it's fun for me, but maybe I should "spare" the forum! I get that point about the equipment being last on the list, but good equipment can't hurt.

... strictly in that order-----Yes makes complete sense! Thanks for reminding me!

WELL, THERE IS "SOME" METHOD TO THE MADNESS--

The reason I decided on Grace is the Mini Me you recommended has been discontinued. Only one or two for sale online with jacked up price. Apogee is now making mini me DAC and wasn't sure if this was the same thing. Also I read the Mini Me DAC operating manual and it was "greek" to me. The language was for professionals. I read all kinds of stuff about the Grace and it looked like it would be easier for me to figure out how to operate, and it has an MS decoder. You had suggested MS and I wanted to try it and this would make that easier for me also.

The reason for wanting to swap my NT1A's for 2A's is that it would open up a lot more options in terms of mic positioning---spaced omnis(although not "true" omnis as you recommended), MS, Blumlien, as well as continuing in the direction I was going with the NT1A's in cardioid mode.

I'm thinking that I might not like the sound of SDC's because the room is, while not terribly small or low cieling, the room is very "padded" with carpet, curtains, furniture etc. and I thing that there wouldn't be enough reflection in the sound--too focused and detailed maybe. I tried the Pulsars in XY and hated the sound, but in ORTF they sounded great--lot more full and open sound. I mean it's just a theory based on not much info, but I guess I'm aso thinking, how many pairs of even low cost mics can I buy?? Also you hadn't recommended them for my situation so I thought "whew!!" maybe one less variable to deal with.

The ribbon thing, well every manufacturer and everyone online warns about how fragile they are and I'm afraid of dropping one, so I'm hesitant about buying even cheap ones. I'm still really curious though.I did look online at Golden Age Projects R1 MK11--interesting (and has 2" ribbon)

Thanks Marik, and I will do my best to stay on the track you put me on and not send you any more "cryptograms" that you want to hide from :D
 
I'm assuming that you're all over the map because you're on a budget and don't really want to buy twice or thrice (although you technically are). You might be better served by addressing the reasons WHY you DON'T like your CURRENT mics. Too much room? Have you tried treating the room? It doesn't have to be anything permanent / expensive. Turn the couch up on end and place the mics in that void pointed at the piano. Does that help? rugs / comforter on the floor? Helps, or not? Opening a door, closing a door, leaving it halfway between the two? Helps, or not?

I've been down this road too. And no matter what I try at my price point, my current mics always seem to rule the roost in one regard or another. I got so lucky choosing them first. Actually I didn't even know they existed until I saw them for sale used. As far as your Rode fetish. You could probably do better, you might not LIKE how other Rode mics compare to your current Rode mics. Be adventurous, branch out of the box. Within reason of course.

Basically can you solve your current woes with a little EQ? Upgrade later once you find out WHY you don't like your current gear. That's really the only way to know what to upgrade to. And you're only upgrading to reduce your post production work flow. Not because you can't do what you want to do with your current gear.
 
Shadow_7 said:
I'm assuming that you're all over the map because you're on a budget and don't really want to buy twice or thrice (although you technically are). You might be better served by addressing the reasons WHY you DON'T like your CURRENT mics. Too much room? Have you tried treating the room? It doesn't have to be anything permanent / expensive. Turn the couch up on end and place the mics in that void pointed at the piano. Does that help? rugs / comforter on the floor? Helps, or not? Opening a door, closing a door, leaving it halfway between the two? Helps, or not?

I've been down this road too. And no matter what I try at my price point, my current mics always seem to rule the roost in one regard or another. I got so lucky choosing them first. Actually I didn't even know they existed until I saw them for sale used. As far as your Rode fetish. You could probably do better, you might not LIKE how other Rode mics compare to your current Rode mics. Be adventurous, branch out of the box. Within reason of course.

Basically can you solve your current woes with a little EQ? Upgrade later once you find out WHY you don't like your current gear. That's really the only way to know what to upgrade to. And you're only upgrading to reduce your post production work flow. Not because you can't do what you want to do with your current gear.
Click to expand...

Well, budget is a big factor, but even if I had a lot $, I wouldn't want to throw it away on buying mics I might not use. The other part is "poisonality" and the other part is---when you come into forums such as this and you don't know much, you get flooded with opinions, and you don't have the experience to evaluate them so it's a real struggle! (so what are your mics that rule the roost?) I like the Rode mic., There are some problems with the sound that I may or may not be able to solve. I have to wait a few weeks until M-audio ships me back the Microtrack, repaired. So I'm on hold for doing anything.
Room treatment, I don't know. Haven't experimented enough with mics yet, I think I can work around it from what I hear in my recordings so far.
Your statement on Rode mics is an example on what I have to struggle through. So many opinions on Rodes--the good, the bad, and the ugly. All I know is that without having much to compare to, I like them. And the bottom line will be getting the sound I like best within my financial means. You know, it may be that given the sound of my piano and the room, the Rodes might be a good choice. I will try a few more things--fig 8 ribbon and true omni is on top of the list. May have to give up idea of Grace Lunatec V3--it will cut down the options with buying a few other low cost mics. We'll see. Can't do nottin' until I get back the Microtrack.
 
halfred said:
OK, I'm a touch "mad", but don't hold it against me, my grandparents were actors in the Russian theater!
Click to expand...

Then it explains it all :D:D:D (sorry, could not resist).
But seriously:

The reason I decided on Grace is the Mini Me you recommended has been discontinued. Only one or two for sale online with jacked up price. Apogee is now making mini me DAC and wasn't sure if this was the same thing. Also I read the Mini Me DAC operating manual and it was "greek" to me. The language was for professionals. I read all kinds of stuff about the Grace and it looked like it would be easier for me to figure out how to operate, and it has an MS decoder. You had suggested MS and I wanted to try it and this would make that easier for me also.
Click to expand...

Well, yeah, but again... you still don't know if MS would work in your situation and would be the best solution. I would not throw that much money into something you still don't know. Who knows, in your situation maybe Blumlein would be just fine or:

I'm thinking that I might not like the sound of SDC's because the room is, while not terribly small or low cieling, the room is very "padded" with carpet, curtains, furniture etc...
Click to expand...

I wish you gave this info about your "padded room" earlier, as in that kind of situation even spaced "true" omnies might be nice, esp. if you have curtains and carpet.

The reason for wanting to swap my NT1A's for 2A's is that it would open up a lot more options in terms of mic positioning---spaced omnis(although not "true" omnis as you recommended), MS, Blumlien, as well as continuing in the direction I was going with the NT1A's in cardioid mode.
Click to expand...

As I have already said in another thread, I am afraid the LD selectable pattern omnies do not work nearly as nice on classical piano as SD "true" omnies--been there, done that. From my experience, the fig8 LD selectables do not work nearly as nice on classical piano as "native" ribbons, so I have very little clue as for what would you accomplish with the NT2A's.

The ribbon thing, well every manufacturer and everyone online warns about how fragile they are and I'm afraid of dropping one, so I'm hesitant about buying even cheap ones. I'm still really curious though.I did look online at Golden Age Projects R1 MK11--interesting (and has 2" ribbon)
Click to expand...

First, you should be extremely careful with ANY microphone, whether it is ribbon or condenser! Second, you don't hold the mics in your hands, the mics are permanently on your mic stand--you just put something protective on them when not in use. Third, common... is the dropping the mic can be a good reason not to use it?

This GA stuff looks exactly like rebranded Apex205, or Nady, or hundreds of other mics, which came off the same factory. I don't see anything particularly interesting in that. If your decision based on the reviews, could you tell me how many of them checked those mics on classical piano. On the other hand, have you ever seen one single bad review of a ribbon microphone?

What I'd do in your situation before anything else, from ebay I'd buy a second hand pair of SP C4's, which have both cardioid and "true" omni capsules. Along with that I'd buy a pair of "Royer copies", i.e. Stellar R3, or whatever else name they come under.
That combination will keep you busy experimenting for quite awhile. Once you find the sound you are happy with, then you can sell that stuff without loosing much money. You can upgrade--there are quite a few good choices, and modifying is not the last.
This, and only this will give you a clear plan; this, and only this way you will know exactly what you need and will be able to invest your money smartly and thoughtfully. Otherwise... well... I won't give an example about "candy store" again... :D:D:D

Hopefully, it is helpful.

Best, M
 
My mics. Avenson STO-2's.

What I don't like about them.
a) lacks low end
b) lacks directionality (which tends to be a good thing)
c) lacks detail (which can be good, no handling noise, wind noise, and other stupid stuff)
d) high noise floor

What I like about them.
a) nice transparent sound. What you hear is what you get.
b) almost perfectly matched pairs. Adjust the gain (in unison) all you want. No fine tuning / guessing involved.
c) OMNI so resistant to wind noise, handling noise, and other issues. And really hard to point in the wrong way. Oh, I'm 10 degrees off, I didnt' even notice.

How I tried to improve on them.
- SM81's
pros:
1) added directionality
2) added low end
3) reduced noise floor
4) added some minor detail
cons:
1) added handling noise
2) added wind noise
3) couldn't handle the SPL level I need
4) not perfectly matched and very trial and error to fine tune that aspect

How I handle the quirks of the roost.
1) about a 0.55dB bump in the low end. Used to be 3dB, but percussive sounds tended to get exagerated that way.
2) beefed up windscreens and such with velcro cord things to add a bit of directionality and prevent wind noise.
3) using a DSD field recorder which maximized perceived detail, even on low detail mics.

What I can't handle.
1) lack of low end.
2) high noise floor.

Target mics.
1) MKH 8020's
2) Beyer MC910
3) Crowm Sass-P
(but no guarantees that ANY of those are "BETTER")
 
Marik said:
Then it explains it all :D:D:D (sorry, could not resist).
But seriously:



Well, yeah, but again... you still don't know if MS would work in your situation and would be the best solution. I would not throw that much money into something you still don't know. Who knows, in your situation maybe Blumlein would be just fine or:



I wish you gave this info about your "padded room" earlier, as in that kind of situation even spaced "true" omnies might be nice, esp. if you have curtains and carpet.



As I have already said in another thread, I am afraid the LD selectable pattern omnies do not work nearly as nice on classical piano as SD "true" omnies--been there, done that. From my experience, the fig8 LD selectables do not work nearly as nice on classical piano as "native" ribbons, so I have very little clue as for what would you accomplish with the NT2A's.



First, you should be extremely careful with ANY microphone, whether it is ribbon or condenser! Second, you don't hold the mics in your hands, the mics are permanently on your mic stand--you just put something protective on them when not in use. Third, common... is the dropping the mic can be a good reason not to use it?

This GA stuff looks exactly like rebranded Apex205, or Nady, or hundreds of other mics, which came off the same factory. I don't see anything particularly interesting in that. If your decision based on the reviews, could you tell me how many of them checked those mics on classical piano. On the other hand, have you ever seen one single bad review of a ribbon microphone?

What I'd do in your situation before anything else, from ebay I'd buy a second hand pair of SP C4's, which have both cardioid and "true" omni capsules. Along with that I'd buy a pair of "Royer copies", i.e. Stellar R3, or whatever else name they come under.
That combination will keep you busy experimenting for quite awhile. Once you find the sound you are happy with, then you can sell that stuff without loosing much money. You can upgrade--there are quite a few good choices, and modifying is not the last.
This, and only this will give you a clear plan; this, and only this way you will know exactly what you need and will be able to invest your money smartly and thoughtfully. Otherwise... well... I won't give an example about "candy store" again... :D:D:D

Hopefully, it is helpful.

Best, M
Click to expand...

Hi Marik, I knew you would forgive me if I came to my senses

Ok I'll take your recommendations literally, without variation. I'll get the C'4's first, used if possible, and experiment with the omni capsules. I'll dump the idea of selectable pattern mics. Then I will decide whether to move on to ribbons (yeah I know "afraid of dropping them"---there I'm getting silly!)

The reason I was thinking about, actually it was the GAP R1 MK111 was:
I read you have to turn up the gain a lot with transformer driven ribbons and I'm concerned about hiss due to the distance from the piano. The R1 MK111 is phantom powered so I thought that would give it more of a boost and also it has a 2" ribbon which you had mentioned in a previous post that you prefer for my circumstances, whereas the Stellar has I believe a 1 1/4 " ribbon---?

Also, can you recommend another preamp $800, or less? Is the Mini Me DAC the same pretty much as the original mini me? I do believe I should go with a decent preamp instead of an expensive field recorder as you previously suggested.
THANKS!!!!!!;)
 
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