Group Buy Interest?

[vicenzajay]

This is...

I think Alan knew a lot about these and seemed to speak knowledgeably about the design.

It was openly stated that these were designed by Chance and his Neve guy and I totally believe that. The fact is that these are VERY close to the Neve design.

What would make sense here is that both are right. Which is my take. I bet that the 797 most likely already had a work in progress that they showed to Alan Hyatt(who promptly passed). Then Chance's design showed up and 797 figured they could pump these out with little to no variation and everyone's happy. The Neve design isn't the best kept secret in the world and given their "top of the heap" status, it'd be no surprise that someone had been working on the budget iteration of that circuit.

I think that Alan saw an issue with the circuit(probably with the power supply) and decided that the risks were too much. As has been stated before, terrible QC is a KILLER when your margins are paper thin. He came in with some not-so-subtle bluster and was run out of town on a mule, but I bet he was right.

And I bet that Chance was right. They put in for a design that was most likely 90% of the way there.

I think 797 were the ones at fault here. It seems like they played dumb and made it sound like this was being designed for Chance and most likely "forgot" about the issues that were identified by others. This points to more fault than just shoddy QC, but actual fraud. They knowingly manufactured a design that worked but with huge flaws knowing how hard it would be to follow through on warrantee requests. Throw in really crappy QC on top of it and you have the current version of the ACMP.

Probably the best summation so far of what probably is the "real" situation here on the preamps. I'm really trying to stay quiet here until Chance gets to weigh in on a "solution" (if there is one) given the unbelievably high number of QC issues (as well as usability/noise issues) on this run. In addition, given my own situation with the military, I don't even know how "my" units are working (or not working) with respect to usability and circuit noise/hum. The post above, however, really does seem to aptly sum up what has happened over the last year with respect to these preamps - including Alan Hyatt's appearance and comments during the Spring.

While it is all nice and good to keep repeating that "we knew what we were getting into" and "getting into this group buy is essentially gambling every dollar spent" and other such phrases, the fact remains that quite a bit of information was sent out at the beginning of the thread concerning these preamp units specifically about their "Neve-inspired" design and their "awesomeness" when A/B'd with real 1073 circuits in a studio environment. While noone may have truly believed that they were getting a "Neve" for pennies on the dollar, I also do not think people believed they were getting a half-baked circuit that was being bread-boarded with little to no actual QC of how the circuit actually passed signal.

I'm still in awe on all the work Chance and Randy did to make this group buy happen. It was my first one, and I'm sure I will participate again in the future. HOWEVER, the way in which this one has developed leads me to posit that perhaps TNC should stick with microphones. Even with the ribbon problems of last year, the mics themselves seem to be exceptional values that actually work 90 percent of the time.

Bottom line is that no basic, low-level QC seems to have been done on the preamps during conception, design and implementation. I, for one, am unfortunately going to have to be doubly wary of any rack units offered through this venue in the future.

 

[drBill]

As an infrequent viewer of this thread I missed the Beijing 797 Audio, Alan Hyatt / Studio Projects and TnC preamp discussion.

But after using the search function I need to ask - were the ACMP preamps actually designed by Beijing 797 Audio (not TnC) then rejected by Alan Hyatt of Studio Projects and others? Has this been substantiated by reputable sources? I thought Chance had a team reverse-engineer his Neve-equipped console then provide schematics to his vendor.

Michael, yes, Chance and his tech designed the pre's. That is of course if you want to give no credit to Rupert. No Alan Hyatt did not instigate the program. He may have had input at some stage. Yes the Chinese are not being completely forthcoming. Your definition of "design" may be completely different than Chance's, or mine, the Chinese or others. The only thing we can be sure of is someone is lying or has memory loss. I'll leave it to you to decide who has the ulterior motive and the potential for profit here - if any. Personally, I say, follow the money trail. I know but can't say.....

Michael,

Please check your PMs.

Here we go again.......

 

[nuemes]

But man, did no one actually listen to these things before the design was finalized?

Yeah, this is the biggie, isn't it?

Either 797 sent Chance a perfect unit for Chance's evaluation and turned around and made different units (in which case Chance should be on the horn with them raising hell and apologizing profusely to the members of the buy, explaining the situation) or Chance and "some of the engineers here in LA...indorsed by the big boys" really didn't bother testing the units before selling hundreds of them. LOL.

Hysterical.

Anyway, I found the ACMP73 usefull as a bass pre and for snare and kick in certain circumstances. I'm happy enough with the units considering the price and do not regret buying them.

I think anyone in future group buys might be be wise to take into consideration that, as our president elect has noted, words have meaning.

Quotes from Chance:

2/7/08:
"Me and my tech forfitted going to the NAMM show on Friday to really go thru these 3 pieces of gear. We were so excited at the results, but reluctantly had to return them at the NAMM show on Saturday."

2/8/08
"Well,, I'm NOT a tech, and we only had a day to work with them under "working situations"."

2/8/08
"I only wish you all could hear these pieces. I asked some of the engineers here in LA if they would comment, but they can't because they are indorsed by the big boys, however, they will be participitating with multiple pieces after spending only about an hour evaluating/testing them."

2/8/08
"As far as them all sounding the same with the EQ bypassed, we (me and several studio engineers) never thought to make that test. We only had time to use them right out of the box. We were all pleased. One of the people helping to evaluate was my Neve tech who maintains my board and did the schematics for me."

 

[mshilarious]

Michael, yes, Chance and his tech designed the pre's. That is of course if you want to give no credit to Rupert. No Alan Hyatt did not instigate the program. He may have had input at some stage. Yes the Chinese are not being completely forthcoming. Your definition of "design" may be completely different than Chance's, or mine, the Chinese or others.

If true, there are two issues:

1) Why did Alan Hyatt have the schematics and not Chance?

2) Who specified the wrong transistors in the 81?

 

[chris carter]

I think this is all water under the bridge to a certain extent.

Chance (and Terry, for that matter) have already stated multiple times in various forums that they will fix/replace the preamps. It's only the logistics that need to be worked out. Given the massive workload Chance is under, the number of units involved (nearly all of the preamps) and the myriad of varying problems with the pres (normal buzz, EQ buzz, defective buttons, defective LEDs, hiss, etc.... all in varying combinations and amounts), I think it's expected to give them a few weeks to figure out the best approach.

But I don't think there is any point in debating how Nevish these sound, or who designed them, or who evaluated them. The risk was in how good they would sound, not whether they would work or not. The important thing is that Chance and Terry said they'll get fixed/replaced somehow and there isn't much debate about that. I've spoken with or met Chance a few times and I know he's working toward a solution as fast as he can. Nobody is superhuman here.

 

[markitzero]

All I know is, I don't want to be Chance right now. I'm sure it was a big enough pain in the nuts to send everything out in the first place (which isn't even done yet), and now he may well have to get a whole bunch of stuff to send back and then pick up and re-distribute. Not to mention all the ball-busting that's being going on with the various message boards.

If this is a test run/precursor to a legit business, I don't really have a problem with that. The pro audio industry is teeming with gear companies that just rebadge Chinese crap. Here, Chance is being up front on what this stuff is, where its coming from, and what the risks are. I don't see a problem anywhere... We were all volunteers in this experiment. If anyone wants to challenge TnC's motivation, go right ahead. But there has been no deception at all. The issue,as it applies to the group buy only, is QC from China.

That said, I lucked out and all the stuff I ordered works great. I wish I got more than one pre (an 84), as the only problems with it are the gain pop everyone has, and the phase inversion button does something more than it should.

The mics are a killer value. The pres, maybe not so much for some people. But why wouldn't you want to take the opportunity to increase your electronics and soldering skills and give fixing these things a shot? The alternatives are farming out the work to someone else, selling them off completely, or not do anything except bitch.

I can appreciate everyone's frustration with their non-functioning gear... but wasn't patience a known requirement here? If you are that upset about this stuff, you seriously need to re-evaluate your life expectations.

 

[antichef]

I have a question that others may be asking -- if there is to be some remedial action taken by TnC or the Chinese (whether you call it warranty or not), should we hold off on modifying our units until we know where we stand?

I've got a whole bunch of BC441 and BC461 transistors, and I'm itching to put them into my 81s, but one of the 81s has a screw missing on an inductor and, strangely, rust on the inside of the top case plate over the XLR connector area. Not sure what happened here, but if there are issues would be addressed remedially, I'd hate to mess that up by going nuts with my soldering iron.

I do my best to keep up with the different forums (fora?), but I haven't seen anything on this issue - anyone know anything?

(also, I should say that I'm happy with what I got - and planned to mod them the whole time - just want to do things correctly. All 9 of my mics are in perfect working order, good ribbon tension, etc., BTW)

 

[nuemes]

Chance is being up front on what this stuff is

Well, I personally would like to hear from the endorsed engineers in LA using the ACMP's.

P.S.: And lest we forget when Hyatt came on the scene on this forum regarding the pre's Chance asked via email that none of us post about it on the forums. What was that all about? If the goal is truth then what gives with asking people not to discuss openly on the forums?

 

[markitzero]

Well, I personally would like to hear from the endorsed engineers in LA using the ACMP's.

Yea, I kinda always thought this was just an innocent exaggeration. I don't really need a big LA engineer's endorsement to be interested in a product anyway.

P.S.: And lest we forget when Hyatt came on the scene on this forum regarding the pre's Chance asked via email that none of us post about it on the forums. What was that all about? If the goal is truth then what gives with asking people not to discuss openly on the forums?

I think this was because Chance was originally trying to keep the manufacturer's indentity under wraps to avoid comparisons between TnC gear and similar gear from other brands made by the same manufacturer... this is what killed the previous attempt at a group buy with another manufacturer.

 

[ausrock]

Here we go again.......

What's your problem Doc........isn't a person allowed to have an opinion different to yours?

And BTW, can you please prove this.......".......yes, Chance and his tech designed the pre's........"

 

[BudgetMC]

Well, on another happy note, I popped another NOS Mullard 4024 into another of my 1200's (Dewie, this time), and voila! no more farty transients. Sounds fabulous on acoustic guitar, in fact.

 

[antichef]

But a basic question lingers - considering tied-up cash, long wait times, defective gear and dismissive or unresponsive customer service, do group buys really offer true value to end users?.

Absolutely and emphatically, yes.

And especially for someone in my position (and I don't believe I'm alone) - non-pro, high tolerance for waiting and diy, and no justification for paying retail prices for these things, no matter how much better the service. (as an aside - I'm one of your customers, too, and your service is fantastic - I very much appreciate the turn-around, the communication, and my modded mic is awesome - you earned every penny of your fee and more -- I'm just saying these things not always a *necessity* for someone in my position)


I've said this before - I know now more clearly than I ever did why retail price is so much higher than wholesale - you pretty much said it - quick turn-around / minimal cash tie-up, high probability of 100% function, quick turnaround on defect remedies, personal attention, etc. - the retailer takes the hit in all these areas. But that's not what I was buying here - I was just buying the stuff. If not for the GB, I plain would never have bought it.

I've been watching these efforts with more than a little fascination as well -- Terry and Chance (and all us participants, to a lesser extent) are in uncharted waters, and are sure to be confronted with many novel issues. This would not have even been possible prior to the web, and is somewhat improbable as is. It's fun to watch and even more fun to be a small part of -- nothing but props to those (especially Chance) who are working so hard to make it happen. Will the lessons learned by TnC inform new distribution models over the next decade? I hope so. And I know I'll still be enjoying this cool stuff

 

[nuemes]

I think this was because Chance was originally trying to keep the manufacturer's indentity under wraps to avoid comparisons between TnC gear and similar gear from other brands made by the same manufacturer... this is what killed the previous attempt at a group buy with another manufacturer.

With respect, isn't that just ridiculous to begin with then? As Chance stated on this board, these pre's were a conjunction of the Chinese manufacturer with his own tech. If this is true then the company Hyatt mentioned would not have been able to shut the group buy down because they would have had no role in the pre's, correct?

Yet then Chance in the email states he's happy with the possiblity that it might be a different company's same model rebranded rather than the design he paid his own tech to help work on.

Doesn't that seem odd to you? You pay your tech to do work and then the manufacturer makes something else and you just accept it and distribute it?

 

[P. Glaser]

Well, on another happy note, I popped another NOS Mullard 4024 into another of my 1200's (Dewie, this time), and voila! no more farty transients. Sounds fabulous on acoustic guitar, in fact.

I don't suppose you'd like to trade me a 1200 for my 73? LOL I really want one to mod and my 73 is giving me fits, (see this post: https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?t=180964&page=279 Post #6970). I do hope someone can give me some insight as to what might be wrong. I've not heard of anyone else having this symptom. Of course, with the current discussion going on, I'll wait till things cool down and then post again.



BTW, I've got questions as well and do hope this all sorts itself out eventually. Carry on, gentlemen.

 

[markitzero]

With respect, isn't that just ridiculous to begin with then? As Chance stated on this board, these pre's were a conjunction of the Chinese manufacturer with his own tech. If this is true then the company Hyatt mentioned would not have been able to shut the group buy down because they would have had no role in the pre's, correct?

Yet then Chance in the email states he's happy with the possiblity that it might be a different company's same model rebranded rather than the design he paid his own tech to help work on.

Doesn't that seem odd to you? You pay your tech to do work and then the manufacturer makes something else and you just accept it and distribute it?

I don't pretend to know what happened between Chance and his tech and the manufacturer. Personally, I don't care who came up with the schematics, because either way it's going to to be a Neve clone/Neve inspired pre.

The issue with the previous group buy being shut down had nothing to do with the group buy stealing ideas... it was about the manufacturer getting pressure from their other customers who saw the group buy as a threat to their profits (since so many people were name-dropping brand name counterparts for the ultra-cheap group buy mics) Most of the mics in this group buy and pretty much all of the previous ones were already-existing designs offered by the manufacturer for rebranding. So unless a company like PMI were to pay for exclusive rights on a design, its up for grabs by any other company for rebranding.

So I guess the big question is whether or not the manufacturer already had this Neve clone preamp designed. And if so, was it the one that PMI passed on. I don't really care one way or the other...although I bet Chance and his tech would be a little pissed if they did all the research and work on mapping out his console's preamps, only to have China give them an already existing design with major QC flaws. And rightly so.

I think it's fairly clear that there was little to no QC done at all at the factory. That's the biggest thing here.

 

[PhiloBeddoe]

I just got notice that SOME of the mics (135 cartons worth) are finished and ready to ship. Some mics need to be individually inspected (ribbon sag) They said that because this is "a first production run" on the mic-pres, they need to test every piece. I might just go ahead and have them ship what is ready now. I say "might" because it would involve extra steps and trips to the port of LA customs. I will call Randy later and see if he has the shipping data on how many and who ordered mics only that are now ready to ship.
Stay tuned

Note that the Chinese told Chance they were testing every preamp.

 

[P. Glaser]

So unless a company like PMI were to pay for exclusive rights on a design, its up for grabs by any other company for rebranding.

And sometimes, not even that would protect a particular design from being offered by the manufacturer to some other company. At least, that's the impression I've been left with.

So I guess the big question is whether or not the manufacturer already had this Neve clone preamp designed. And if so, was it the one that PMI passed on. I don't really care one way or the other...although I bet Chance and his tech would be a little pissed if they did all the research and work on mapping out his console's preamps, only to have China give them an already existing design with major QC flaws. And rightly so.

It sure looks like a bait and switch to me!

And the saga continues....

 

[mshilarious]

Will the lessons learned by TnC inform new distribution models over the next decade? I hope so.

Well I guess I would hope so too, but I don't think TnC has learned anything novel:

- You can sell a lot of units if you promise not to make any money, by marketing the units on the most popular recording forums on the internet, and you don't have to pay for advertising.

- You can't clear $250K+ through Paypal in violation of their TOS. Instead, you need connections with a CC industry expert who can score you a merchant account and code your transaction system for free.

- One person with a full-time job can't fulfill 400+ orders in a reasonable time. Instead, you hire a company that specializes in fulfillment.

- The Chinese have poor QC. You need to have your own tech diagnose the problems (for free, in this case), and let the customers repair their units based on his instructions.

- Don't offer a warranty without quantifying the potential liability.


To be honest, most businesses already know all that stuff, except they pay for the services rather than get them for free. So the lesson is if you promise not to make any money, and donate thousands of hours to a group buy, you can provide your customers with lower prices? That is not a useful lesson if you're responsible for putting food on the table . . .

Observe how the group buy relies upon people who are donating their time, yet gained their expertise working for paying clients. Therefore, the paying clients already know their services are necessary.

 

[nuemes]

So the lesson is if you promise not to make any money, and donate thousands of hours to a group buy, you can provide your customers with lower prices? That is not a useful lesson if you're responsible for putting food on the table . . .

Can I get a CHA-CHING! up in the hizz-ay?

 

[P. Glaser]

- One person with a full-time job can't fulfill 400+ orders in a reasonable time. Instead, you hire a company that specializes in fulfillment.

Isn't the shipping company a government run program for the handicapped? I thought I read this somewhere. No cost (or at least that was my impression, please correct me if I'm wrong).