Group Buy Interest?

[JTC111]

JTC whats wrong with you? Its not necessary to reply in every post with an insult or attack. Do you act like such an ass IRL?



A massive stretch. Your comparing bush's war mongering to alan hyatts post? [which could still hold merit as far as anyone knows] . You need to relax, we're buying mics, its not that serious.

No, I wasn't comparing them. I was explaining why I choose not to keep my mouth shut anymore when I see people taking actions that are meant to cause harm or disrepute to those undeserving of either. I'm no longer inclined to keep my mouth shut whether it be about something as important as war mongering or something as trivial as a GB mic pre.

Hyatt came here with nothing more than speculation. He tried to portray himself as some noble purveyor of the truth, a truth which served no purpose at the time he brought it since the money for the GB had already changed hands and the order placed. The only purpose it could serve would be to cause disruption. He began the disruption on the GS board where he called Chance a liar. A few days later, he brought the same accusations to this board. Clearly, it would only take a few people nervous about the process to start questioning Chance's credibility to turn this into a shitfest and Hyatt was smart enough to know that. Given the number of people involved in this GB, it was likely he'd find those few nervous people, and he did.

Now I've never met Chance, nor have I ever met Hyatt, but I can ascertain some things about each of them... Chance has run several of these group buys and we saw not one single post from anyone who had been a participant in any previous GB putting Chance's credibility in question or casting doubt on the cost-to-value ration of previous GB gear. Knowing nothing else about him, that speaks volumes to me about Chance's integrity and trustworthiness.

On the other hand, Hyatt's integrity is very much in question as far as I'm concerned for the reasons I outlined in the second paragraph of this post.

When Hyatt made his first post in this thread, I recognized it for what it was. It was meant to undermine and, to some degree, it has succeeded. It's a damn shame that more people didn't speak up in Chance's defense when that first post showed up. If they had, perhaps we'd have avoided much of what's happened since then. But people tend to be sheep: quiet and easily led.

Whether because of some tenet of his faith or another reason, Chance has chosen to take the high road on this. I share neither Chance's faith nor his reserved nature and therefore am not bound to temper my opinions and be nice about what, to me, looks like blatant character assassination. I'm certainly capable of being an asshole on occasion and I've apologized for being so on plenty of occasions; however, I make no apologies for anything I've said regarding Hyatt or those he's drawn in. If things I've said make some of you uncomfortable, that wasn't my intention, but I don't intend to be quiet about this if Hyatt and his apologists are going to continue to stir the pot.

 

[JTC111]

JTC, it's true that we won't know for sure what's in the pres or how they perform until they actually arrive. But this constant slamming of Alan Hyatt isn't really accomplishing anything. He has more experience with the Chinese (and with 747 in particular) than any of us do, and that includes Chance. Obviously there are a couple of others here who feel the way you do, but I think you're in the minority.

Hyatt called Chance a liar. Are you saying I'm in the minority in thinking Chance didn't lie to us?

 

[PhilGood]

JTC, you ARE new to this board. I have lurked here watching the reactions to this and your repeated knee-jerk reactions to this are unbelievable!

I DO know Alan, I have met him, talked with Brent and him both and I DO know his business and what he has to deal with in his relationships with 797. If I had to make a choice between what you say vs. what Alan says, I would trust Alan every time!

You need to understand that 797 is a company which is, (or was) owned by the Chinese government. It is a company KNOWN for playing all the ends against the middle in damn near everything they do! You can trust them about as far as you can throw them and Alan has done a respectively amazing job providing products for his company to the best of his ability to his requirements and provides excellent support and honest information. It's an uphill battle for the most part. I am not a sycophant of his company and he doesn't need me to defend him or his practices. Non the less, I feel the need to express my disgust in your reactions to him. I do not know Chance, and can say nothing bad about him at all. I do feel like Chance may have been the victim of the typical business dealings that 797 has been notorious for.

Seriously, your rhetoric is off the deep end! I understand your frustration in this situation but you DO NOT have a comprehensive understanding of what is going on behind the scenes here! ALAN DOES!!

In short, KNOCK IT OFF!!

You are coming off like a complete bone-head!!!

Until you know the inner workings on what goes on in dealing with Chinese companies like 797 it would be best if you shut up and wait as opposed to spewing ignorant comments such as you have been doing. All you have been doing in the meantime has been showing your true colors.

EDIT: This whole time you've been playing the game "Chance lied vs. Alan lied". You dumbass! 797 is the culprit!! ...For f**k sake! Get a grip! You trust THEM??? ...OMG!!!!

I should neg rep you back to the stone age, but I won't!

 

[ausrock]

Only to the people who want to perpetuate the bullshit started by Hyatt.

If you can't or don't want to see that the fodder for the bullshit was already scattered throughout the GB threads then again, that's your problem. One fact is that the truth could lie within any one of a few scenarios and I don't know 100% which is right so while I have my suspicions, I'm happy to sit back and wait for the gear. If you're happy with your version of "the truth", then fine but FFS don't deny others the right to have and/or express a different opinion.

So says the guy whose avatar is the middle finger ....somewhat infantile, eh?

You're really clutching at straws there aren't you

And there's no need for you to continually prop up Hyatt's horseshit. As has been pointed out more than once, we won't know anything decisive until we get the pres in our hands. Why that simple fact escapes you is a mystery to me.

Refer to my first comment here.

 

[Gilliland]

Hyatt called Chance a liar. Are you saying I'm in the minority in thinking Chance didn't lie to us?

You seem to see this in black and white, but most of us are seeing shades of gray. Yes, I definitely think that your position is the minority one.

I think Chance has done his best to give us accurate information. I think Alan is doing his best to give us accurate information. I think that each of them has some degree of accurate information, but very different styles of presenting it. And I think that 797 is almost certainly giving different information to each of them. Some of the misinformation may be coming from different individuals within the 797 organization, some may be occurring due to language issues, and some may be deliberate on the part of the vendor. At this point, we really have no way of knowing.

Our best bet for getting a clear picture is to let the two of them compare notes and consolidate what they know. That still may not give us a complete answer, but it should move us in the right direction. But the important point is that it won't happen unless everyone quits bashing Chance and/or Alan, and lets them aggregate their information without all this screaming and yelling.

 

[JTC111]

JTC, you ARE new to this board. I have lurked here watching the reactions to this and your repeated knee-jerk reactions to this are unbelievable!

Hyatt calling Chance a liar is kneejerk reaction too, isn't it? Yet you defend him.

I DO know Alan, I have met him, talked with Brent and him both and I DO know his business and what he has to deal with in his relationships with 797. If I had to make a choice between what you say vs. what Alan says, I would trust Alan every time!

The choice isn't between what I say and what Hyatt says. I'm not laying out any particular scenario.

You need to understand that 797 is a company which is, (or was) owned by the Chinese government. It is a company KNOWN for playing all the ends against the middle in damn near everything they do! You can trust them about as far as you can throw them and Alan has done a respectively amazing job providing products for his company to the best of his ability to his requirements and provides excellent support and honest information. It's an uphill battle for the most part.

Exactly. A company from a country that is known to lie and be dishonest in it's business dealings tells Hyatt a story and he believes it entirely and without question to such a degree that he feels he's entitled and justified to come on these boards and call Chance a liar.

I'll remind you that Hyatt didn't lay this out whereby there may be a possibility that his contact at 797 might be lying to him. You'll recall he said he trusts his man there absolutely. Hyatt didn't come here and say, "hey people, there may be some shennanagins going on." He called Chance a liar.

Explain to me how he's justified in doing that?

I am not a sycophant of his company and he doesn't need me to defend him or his practices. Non the less, I feel the need to express my disgust in your reactions to him.

Okay, you're disgusted. I'm pretty disgusted too, as you can probably tell.

I do not know Chance, and can say nothing bad about him at all. I do feel like Chance may have been the victim of the typical business dealings that 797 has been notorious for.

Not according to Hyatt. According to Hyatt, 797 would never give him (Hyatt) false information and Chance is a liar.

Seriously, your rhetoric is off the deep end! I understand your frustration in this situation but you DO NOT have a comprehensive understanding of what is going on behind the scenes here! ALAN DOES!!

Hyatt also has an obivious interest in eliminating competition in the low-cost mic market.

As for a comprehensive understanding of what's going on behind the scenes, according to you (and I agree with you), the company cannot be trusted, therefore no one has an accurate behind the scenes view except for the company. Hyatt, since he may have been lied to, cannot be sure of the accuracy of his information (but that didn't stop him from presenting it as fact and calling Chance a liar, did it?)

In short, KNOCK IT OFF!!
You are coming off like a complete bone-head!!!

Until you know the inner workings on what goes on in dealing with Chinese companies like 797 it would be best if you shut up and wait as opposed to spewing ignorant comments such as you have been doing. All you have been doing in the meantime has been showing your true colors.

Then shouldn't Hyatt shut up too? Let's recall what you said earlier in this post: "It is a company KNOWN for playing all the ends against the middle in damn near everything they do! You can trust them about as far as you can throw them.... "

Now contrast that with Hyatt's position that 797 doesn't lie to him.

And there's the basis for my argument: the company WILL lie to anyone, including Hyatt. Therefore, only the company knows what's truly going on. Hyatt can only offer conjecture and on that basis alone, Chance's reputation and credibility shouldn't get trashed.

EDIT: This whole time you've been playing the game "Chance lied vs. Alan lied". You dumbass! 797 is the culprit!! ...For f**k sake! Get a grip! You trust THEM??? ...OMG!!!!

I've never said Chance lied to us about anything. Never. I've probably been the loudest voice here defending his reputation against Hyatt's accusation that Chance is a liar.

Nor, for that matter, have I said that Hyatt is a liar either (he may have been duped by the company). I have pointed out possible motives for his actions. In one post, I believe I even laid out a possible scenario whereby both he and Chance could be telling the truth; in other words, the company is lying to both of them.

Where I take exception is Hyatt calling Chance a liar. If Hyatt's intentions where good and honorable, he would have recognized the possibility that the company might have lied to him and not made that accusation.

Again, I'd like someone to explain to me how he's justified in calling Chance a liar. Explain to me how Hyatt was right to have done so.

I should neg rep you back to the stone age, but I won't!

Hey, do whatever makes you phil good.

 

[JTC111]

I think Chance has done his best to give us accurate information. I think Alan is doing his best to give us accurate information. I think that each of them has some degree of accurate information, but very different styles of presenting it.

So you're saying that when Hyatt called Chance a liar, it was just his "style" of presenting information?

Honestly, I don't understand some of you. Chance invites you guys to get in on this thing. There's really no motivation for it other than kindness. Hyatt calls Chance a liar and none of you condemn him for it. That really sucks.

 

[JTC111]

I should neg rep you back to the stone age, but I won't!

LOL ...he gave me neg rep right after he said he wouldn't. I returned the favor with some positive rep because I'm really a nice guy despite what some of you might think.

You're welcome, Phil.

 

[ausrock]

JTC,

You seem to be ignoring the fact that before Alan joined in at GS there had been conflicting information given, specifically about the origins of the transformers in the preamps..........these changing "truths" had not gone unnoticed by some people in the GB

 

[alanhyatt]

JTC,

First of all, I am not trying to shut Chance down. If you can find anywhere where I have tried to stop this buy and replace it with one of my products, then please show me...

I said I did not want to make this a cluster%#@ but a couple of guys are making it that, but if you want details, then PM me or email me. My email address is very public. I will be happy to tell you all. If you still think I am lying, then fine.

What I did at first was to correct a statement from Chance about transformers on the units you all are buying. while I felt it very odd the person who claims to have been involved on the spec or design of it did not know where the transformers were from...I believe he said the USA and that their source was a secret, and he did not know the brand either. So I posted and corrected that while I was at the factory that builds them because I know these units and have seen them back in 2007.

When I read another post where it was said this project was a year long project, again I came in to make a correction. Why, because I have seen these units, and have been involved in fixing resonance peaks on the inductors when we were going to do it under the SP ENVY IN June of 2007, but I eventually passed on them. A pic of the ENVY from June of 2007 is posted...Kind of familiar isn't it...only we added a lot of stuff and redesigned the schematic, but still passed on building it. I guess my point here is if you want to talk about design, We did a lot of design on the unit, which 797 Audio then made it their way and Chance bought them.

So if there are two people who know pretty much everything about these units, it would be John MA and myself. All I was interested in was telling you guys the truth about their origin and design. It seems you do not want to hear it, or care to...Fine, I am not selling you anything.

I still said this unit will be good for many, not so good for others...Either way another piece of gear for a very good deal.

 

[JTC111]

JTC,

You seem to be ignoring the fact that before Alan joined in at GS there had been conflicting information given, specifically about the origins of the transformers in the preamps..........these changing "truths" had not gone unnoticed by some people in the GB

Ausrock, did he (Hyatt) or did he not call Chance a liar?
You might want to review this post of hyatt's over at GS. In his second sentence he says he's "not calling anyone anything." Then the rest of the post goes on to tell us that Chance is a liar and that John Ma, his Chinese contact, is absolutely to be believed.

In this post, he makes up lies about what Chance actually said about the transformers in the pres when all Chance was doing was speculating on where the pres were coming from based on a dicey conversation with the manufacturer. Chance never gave a definitive statement as to where the transformers were coming from and if you're going to perpetuate Hyatt's lie, then you should link to the post where Chance said otherwise.

In that same post, he also says, "My motive here is the person selling you this should tell you the truth...."

Ausrock, what do those words mean if he's not calling Chance a liar?

From another post, "they should not have said things they did, when they did nothing. I spoke to John MA today!!!! So here is what you will all get in a different color and Chances name."

Again, calling Chance a liar.

How is Hyatt justified in calling Chance a liar based upon, at best, speculative information?

 

[JTC111]

JTC,
First of all, I am not trying to shut Chance down. If you can find anywhere where I have tried to stop this buy and replace it with one of my products, then please show me....

No, you wouldn't be that obvious. What you did instead was try many times to undermine Chance's integrity by accusing him of lying to us as I've pointed out in my post immediately previous to this one.

I said I did not want to make this a cluster%#@ but a couple of guys are making it that, but if you want details, then PM me or email me. My email address is very public. I will be happy to tell you all. If you still think I am lying, then fine.

That's how you should have handled it from the beginning. Instead, you chose the character assassination route. Why?

What I did at first was to correct a statement from Chance about transformers on the units you all are buying.

No, what you did was attribute to Chance a statement of fact that he never made. If you can find a post where Chance says, these pres are definitely not coming from China, I'd love to see it.

When I read another post where it was said this project was a year long project, again I came in to make a correction. Why, because I have seen these units

And you provided no pictures of the actual internals of those units, did you? You're basing your accusation on a face plate and what you were told by John Ma. That is just not enough proof.

At this point, I'd say you owe Chance a public apology on this board and every other board where you've accused him of lying.

 

[ausrock]

No, what you did was attribute to Chance a statement of fact that he never made. If you can find a post where Chance says, these pres are definitely not coming from China, I'd love to see it.

Well here you go................Post #4468, page 179 of this thread..................."No news yet on the color of the pre amps, but the xfrmrs ARE NOT from China. Due to confidentiality, they will not reveal what country they are from"

 

[alanhyatt]

JTC,

You are entitled to think and express your opinion as you see fit. When you get your units you can open them up and compare them to Chances build files...if he ever posts them.

Until then I am not going to change your mind, so be it. The truth will come out, it always does!!! It has nothing to do with what Chance is buying from 797 Audio and selling to you.. Its how the gear was represented that is an issue...for me....

 

[JTC111]

Well here you go................Post #4468, page 179 of this thread..................."No news yet on the color of the pre amps, but the xfrmrs ARE NOT from China. Due to confidentiality, they will not reveal what country they are from"

Okay, that was definitive and mistaken, but let's go through all Chance's posts on the subject:

Here's the one where Hyatt says Chance said the transformers were from the US. Plain to see, he was speculating.
#4472 "I gotta hunch that these are from the USA. Nothing to confirm that, just a hunch."

At this point, he realizes that he was mistaken about the transformers not being from China and he corrects the information he gave earlier. Clearly no deceit was intended, otherwise why post the correction?
#4555 "I mentioned that "the xfrmrs are not made in China" I might be wrong. They mentioned that "they do not make the xfrmrs and out source them" and I assumed that ment that they imported them."

So I'll ask you again, how is Hyatt justified in calling Chance a liar?

Had he made all those posts and characterized Chance as possibly being mistaken or misled by 797, I'd have had no issue with him. But he didn't do that. He repeatedly called him a liar.

How is he justified in doing that?

 

[JTC111]

Its how the gear was represented that is an issue...for me....

But it wasn't YOUR issue. You're not part of this GB.

 

[ausrock]

Okay, that was definitive and mistaken,

No, it was definitive and misleading, either deliberately or mistakenly but regardless, it was EXACTLY what Chance said.

Just keep believing whatever you want, it's obvious that you aren't prepared to consider anything other than your own opinion to be right.

 

[JTC111]

No, it was definitive and misleading, either deliberately or mistakenly but regardless, it was EXACTLY what Chance said.

Just keep believing whatever you want, it's obvious that you aren't prepared to consider anything other than your own opinion to be right.

If it was deliberately misleading, what purpose did it serve?

And if it was deliberately misleading, why did he correct the information?

And I'll ask yet again, is it your contention that Hyatt is justified in calling Chance a liar?

 

[Marcadiablo]

This is getting stupidly out of hand! Chance, said this, Allan said that... Who the FUCK cares?!!! You guys are getting a great deal here. If the pres are half the good that you think are going to be, still are worth more than the little money that you paid for them. Unfortunately, and Chance and Randy know, that for circumstances out of my control I couldn't be part of this GB. But if you don't want the pres, I'll have them ALL and make a shitload of money on Ebay. At the end what this will cause is that Chance will say the hell with you all and we are not gonna to see another GB taking place. I have talked to both of them (through PM's) and have been very courteous to me and are very nice people. Come on guys. this is looking like a school girl fight.

 

[drBill]

And I think that 797 is almost certainly giving different information to each of them. Some of the misinformation may be coming from different individuals within the 797 organization, some may be occurring due to language issues, and some may be deliberate on the part of the vendor.

I tend to agree with this and have been saying from the start that 797 was playing both sides. HOWEVER - not to back up JTC cause he was slagging me also - but AH did come in a say that he knew the complete truth and that Chance was "misleading" us and not giving us the "truth". (That's putting it nicely.) If he's such a man of integrity and has been so involved with the Chinese for such a long time, he should know how they roll. No?

None of us (not Alan, not Chance and certainly not any of us) will ever know the real truth about what went down. It's over in China and will stay there.

I had a great conversation with Chance yesterday on the phone and am convinced that his version of the "truth" is IN FACT the "truth" - as it has unfolded to him. What he said happened, happened. In reality, it's patently obvious to me at least that the Chinese are pulling a fast one. Just how loose and how fast? No one will know until we get the units, and even then, we'll never know who did what - just if they meet spec or not. We will receive whatever they decide to send us, and must hope for the best.

Maybe along with their lessons on capitalism, the Chinese will get a few pointers on business ettiquite, ethics, and telling the truth along the way. One can only hope.....

Until then, I hold no animosity to those who are questioning what's going on. And for those who decide to follow without question, I have no animosity either. Peace.

bp