Group Buy Interest?

[Chris Long]

So the Chinese manufacturers aren't to be trusted, don't keep their word, nothing is confidential, they'll tell you anything they think you want to hear, etc etc. Fine; I find that believable, actually.

Why then is what they tell ANYONE to be believed--including AH? The info he has been told--why isn't that suspect, as well?

That's the part that has me puzzled.

 

[JTC111]

Alan is not calling Chance a liar from what I can see.

Harvey, you must have missed this:

I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. The unit Chance is buying from 797 Audio is designed by 797 Audio, sorry Chance, not designed by you, not even the mic amp is different. All Chance did is change the color and put the TNC name on it.
If Chance designed it, then show me the schematics and prove me wrong.

Clearly the implication is that Chance lied to us about "designing" these units and that's a claim Chance never made.

And you must've missed this also:

If you read back, Chance has said the transformers are from the USA, then they were not from China but 797 Audio could not tell them where it was from because it is confidential and then that he designed the mic amp and made some other changes so the factory could not begin production....All not true.

I really don't know how else this can be characterized other than he's calling Chance a liar. Not only that, he accusing Chance of lying about things Chance never said.

If you all are happy not getting the truth, then I am happy to see you guys be told what ever you want to hear, no matter if you are getting a good deal or not.

What else does that mean if not that we're being lied to?

My motive here is the person selling you this should tell you the truth and at best have the answers. Nothing more, nothing less....If he did design it, he would have all the answers to the questions I have addressed.

Good luck with your purchases. The next time you buy something I should just let you get told what you all want to hear...misrepresentations or not. I will post the photos for those that asked, but post no further replies as it seems you are happier to be mislead than to know the truth....

Harvey, coming to the defense of one's friends is an admirable quality but sometimes our loyalties blind us to that which we might otherwise see (and for the record, short of a couple of phone conversations where I was helping to clear up the Paypal mess, I don't know Chance from Adam). While AH doesn't use the word "liar," I can't see how any objective reading of his posts wouldn't lead one to surmise that he is, in fact, calling Chance a liar.

I believe his objective was to impugn Chance's reputation enough that any future attempts at GBs would be met with sufficient skepticism and negativity, that Chance would just give up on the process (and judging from what I've seen so far, I'm betting he accomplished his goal). After all, who wants to see their name dragged through the dirt just because they're trying to do a good turn for a lot of people they hardly know.

Jim

 

[nuemes]

Alan is not calling Chance a liar from what I can see.

Alan responded to PM's I sent him and he is calling Chance a liar.

From what I gather from Alan, PMI was working with 797 on the pre's in Alan's photos (based on another manufacturers model with 797 & PMI schematics) prior to our group buy. 797 couldn't get it right and the project fell apart. Later on (again this is according to Alan) Alan finds that the pres he was working on with 797 look exactly like the Group Buy pres short of the color and name brand and is told by MA that they are the same.

Alan believes that the Group Buy pres were not designed by Chance's tech and he says he has dated emails, files, & schematics to prove this. He believes Chance lied about his own tech designing the pres. Alan feels like PMI is getting ripped off because he says they (PMI) played a role in the design that are the Group Buy pre's.

Alan - correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.

So, that brings us to this:
Either Alan is mistaken and his contact at 797 is lying to him or Chance is lying. Somebody is lying. I, frankly, would like to see Chance and Alan start a thread between themselves on this board, with no-one else's input, and get down to the bottom of this. I don't care who is right or wrong, but I want to know what we're getting and to clear the air.

I am not against Chance in this. I am still entirely satisfied with how the last Group Buy went. My studio owes a lot of new guitar and drum tones to Chance and I found Chance entirely gracious throughout the process

However, Chance has been hyping the pre's in this group buy since the begining as being nearly indistinguishable from his Neve's and we all know that that is bullshit unless his Neve's are screwed up. If anyone really expects these pre's to sound like Neve's then you can throw it in my face by doing a one-on-one audio comparison when the pre's come back, yes?

Frankly, I think Chance was wrong to hype these pre's and he certainly could have posted audio files if he was being entirely on the up-&-up. That's what I would have done.

Remember, we are all part of the Group Buy. We are investors: we gave Chance our money and hope for good returns. In return I expect full disclosure. Anything less and Chance becomes just like the middlemen he says he's been disappointed with.

 

[drBill]

I was going to post some of AH's comments regarding the "real truth" from GS, but there were so many I couldn't choose which one, then I just got too damn mad again........

This stuff REALLY pisses me off. I keep up with the thread to keep track of what's going on with the GB, but this is just rediculous.



OK, nevermind. From the previous post by nuemes, I guess Alan IS calling Chance a liar. I think something positive needs to happen here guys, or this thing is going to turn into a cesspool. Maybe it's already too late to save the "fun" of the group buy. Ugh....

 

[JTC111]

We've just witnessed the death of the Group Buy.

 

[ausrock]

From what I gather from Alan, PMI was working with 797 on the pre's in Alan's photos (based on another manufacturers model with 797 & PMI schematics) prior to our group buy. 797 couldn't get it right and the project fell apart. Later on (again this is according to Alan) Alan finds that the pres he was working on with 797 look exactly like the Group Buy pres short of the color and name brand and is told by MA that they are the same.

Alan believes that the Group Buy pres were not designed by Chance's tech and he says he has dated emails, files, & schematics to prove this. He believes Chance lied about his own tech designing the pres. Alan feels like PMI is getting ripped off because he says they (PMI) played a role in the design that are the Group Buy pre's.

Alan - correct me if I'm wrong on any of that.

PMI did, at the least, assist 797 with design problems.

So, that brings us to this:
Either Alan is mistaken and his contact at 797 is lying to him or Chance is lying. Somebody is lying. I, frankly, would like to see Chance and Alan start a thread between themselves on this board, with no-one else's input, and get down to the bottom of this. I don't care who is right or wrong, but I want to know what we're getting and to clear the air.

I am not against Chance in this. I am still entirely satisfied with how the last Group Buy went. My studio owes a lot of new guitar and drum tones to Chance and I found Chance entirely gracious throughout the process

However, Chance has been hyping the pre's in this group buy since the begining as being nearly indistinguishable from his Neve's and we all know that that is bullshit unless his Neve's are screwed up. If anyone really expects these pre's to sound like Neve's then you can throw it in my face by doing a one-on-one audio comparison when the pre's come back, yes?

Frankly, I think Chance was wrong to hype these pre's and he certainly could have posted audio files if he was being entirely on the up-&-up. That's what I would have done.

Remember, we are all part of the Group Buy. We are investors: we gave Chance our money and hope for good returns. In return I expect full disclosure. Anything less and Chance becomes just like the middlemen he says he's been disappointed with.

Word!!!


EDIT:
Alan had no problem with the GB, there's little to nothing in it's product range that seriously competes with PMI's products. He expects GBs to continue to be popular even to the point of offering to assist me set one up for myself if I wished to. His only "problem" was with the information being posted in the GB threads...............no doubt the manner in which he approached the issue has left something to be desired but knowing Alan, not for one minute do I think there was any deliberate "agenda" or malice meant in his actions.

That's just my opinion and as we all know.......opinions are like bums, we all have one.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I think what Alan is trying to say is that 797 intends to simply deliver their standard units to Chance. As I've said before, either way is fine with me. I don't think anybody is "lying".

There's no reason I can think of for Chance or Alan to lie; Alan's not buying any for PMI, and doesn't seem to want to in the future. I think he's saying to not take all of Chance's desired goals as absolutes; not because Chance is lying, but because 797 will do whatever they feel like doing. And Chance is a fuckin' miracle worker for pulling this off at all, stock or otherwise.

And again, I'll be happy with whatever we get for this price. Stock 797 units are fine; units with Chance's mods would be even better.

If the units arrive stock, 797 lied to Chance; if they arrived modded, 797 lied to Alan. Who cares?

Either way, we get a great deal, thanks to Chance.

 

[Fab4ever]

I think Harvey's take is the best way to think about this.

 

[Creamyapples1]

+1 for Harvey

 

[rocketmark]

This seriously has to stop. It's a cheap mic pre. If it sounds like crap it's not because Chance lied to us or Alan told us so. Whether 797 is pulling shenanigans in order to make a buck off of someone else isn't relevant. In the end Chance did us all a favor by inviting us into this. It's a shame that he's considering stopping them. Let it go. As long as 2 pre's show up at my door Chance will be alright in my book. That's the only thing that matters. If anyone is getting cold feet about their pre's, I'll step up and happily take 2 more off of their hands. PM me and we can work it out. Otherwise we should all be following the mad scientists over at prodigy-pro as they dissect the schematics that leaked.

 

[rocketmark]

I agree with Harvey as well. I was just too slow typing my repsonse

 

[drBill]

TIt's a shame that he's considering stopping them.

hey Rocketmark - can you clarify that statement? Not sure what you meant by that.

 

[rocketmark]

hey Rocketmark - can you clarify that statement? Not sure what you meant by that.

LOL. Uh...I guess I thought if I made everyone think about boobs it would distract them until the pre's came in

 

[nuemes]

This seriously has to stop. It's a cheap mic pre. If it sounds like crap it's not because Chance lied to us or Alan told us so. Whether 797 is pulling shenanigans in order to make a buck off of someone else isn't relevant. In the end Chance did us all a favor by inviting us into this. It's a shame that he's considering stopping them. Let it go. As long as 2 pre's show up at my door Chance will be alright in my book. That's the only thing that matters. If anyone is getting cold feet about their pre's, I'll step up and happily take 2 more off of their hands. PM me and we can work it out. Otherwise we should all be following the mad scientists over at prodigy-pro as they dissect the schematics that leaked.

Funny you say this because you have 7 (read: SEVEN) posts on this board and they're all regarding the Group Buy. I'm sure your true identity will not be revealed. Anywho, you know where to find my ballsack

 

[rocketmark]

Funny you say this because you have 7 (read: SEVEN) posts on this board and they're all regarding the Group Buy. I'm sure your true identity will not be revealed. Anywho, you know where to find my ballsack

So...it's a pissing match now? Your opinion is more valid due to post count?

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Well, I'll also take two more (of any of the preamps) if somebody wants to jump ship and get out of the group buy.

 

[pohaku]

Ya know, an awful lot of what is being recited as "fact" here is hearsay. It is possible that while Allan believes that Chance is lying, in fact neither Allan nor Chance is knowingly lying.

Alan is telling us what John Ma allegedly told him. Hearsay. John Ma allegedly told Allan that he never got designs from Chance. Is it true? We don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Based on the postings (I've not PM'd Allan and I don't know him), I'd say that Allan believes what John Ma told him and believes that the pres weren't designed by Chance -- and apparently believes they are based on a prior failed PMI venture with 797. While he may be inclined to believe it based on his personal relationship with Ma, we don't really know if it is true. It is entirely possible that Chance sent some design specs to China and got back Allan's pre in return. Chance believes that the pre is based on his tech's work. He said he never popped the hood when he got the sample. Does he know for sure it's based on his tech's work -- perhaps not.

Additionally, why Chance would knowingly construct such an artifice when he clearly isn't making any material profit on the deal (and Allan's quoted figures back that up) suggests, at least to me, that he isn't juking us around. About the only material benefit to Chance would be the opportunity to order some pres for himself at a marginally better bargain rate - and given the work and hassles involved in doing a GB, that doesn't seem like much incentive. It certainly wouldn't be sufficient incentive to induce me to do it.

Sounds like Allan's not too happy about 797's sale of the pres either. Why he's inclined to give John Ma so much credibility, if he also thinks that 797 is ripping PMI for their design, I don't really know. Based on the information they've each received from 797, both Allan and Chance could reasonably believe that they are each correct and that the other party is lying.

I'd say the only person who really knows for sure about the provenance of the pres is John Ma, and he isn't talking to us. We only know what other people say he said. Hearsay.

Me, I bought 6 pres and I personally don't care who designed them as long as they sound good

 

[nuemes]

I think what Alan is trying to say is that 797 intends to simply deliver their standard units to Chance. As I've said before, either way is fine with me. I don't think anybody is "lying".

There's no reason I can think of for Chance or Alan to lie; Alan's not buying any for PMI, and doesn't seem to want to in the future. I think he's saying to not take all of Chance's desired goals as absolutes; not because Chance is lying, but because 797 will do whatever they feel like doing. And Chance is a fuckin' miracle worker for pulling this off at all, stock or otherwise.

And again, I'll be happy with whatever we get for this price. Stock 797 units are fine; units with Chance's mods would be even better.

If the units arrive stock, 797 lied to Chance; if they arrived modded, 797 lied to Alan. Who cares?

Either way, we get a great deal, thanks to Chance.

Whatever, Harvey. Your embellishment used in trying to be a diplomat won't get down to the bottom of this. You taking the high road might be good for your karma but if all parties took the high road to begin with we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm interested in determining where the failure occured (whether Alan, Chance or Ma) so we can move forward in good faith.

 

[nuemes]

Ya know, an awful lot of what is being recited as "fact" here is hearsay. It is possible that while Allan believes that Chance is lying, in fact neither Allan nor Chance is knowingly lying.

Alan is telling us what John Ma allegedly told him. Hearsay. John Ma allegedly told Allan that he never got designs from Chance. Is it true? We don't know. Maybe, maybe not. Based on the postings (I've not PM'd Allan and I don't know him), I'd say that Allan believes what John Ma told him and believes that the pres weren't designed by Chance -- and apparently believes they are based on a prior failed PMI venture with 797. While he may be inclined to believe it based on his personal relationship with Ma, we don't really know if it is true. It is entirely possible that Chance sent some design specs to China and got back Allan's pre in return. Chance believes that the pre is based on his tech's work. He said he never popped the hood when he got the sample. Does he know for sure it's based on his tech's work -- perhaps not.

Additionally, why Chance would knowingly construct such an artifice when he clearly isn't making any material profit on the deal (and Allan's quoted figures back that up) suggests, at least to me, that he isn't juking us around. About the only material benefit to Chance would be the opportunity to order some pres for himself at a marginally better bargain rate - and given the work and hassles involved in doing a GB, that doesn't seem like much incentive. It certainly wouldn't be sufficient incentive to induce me to do it.

Sounds like Allan's not too happy about 797's sale of the pres either. Why he's inclined to give John Ma so much credibility, if he also thinks that 797 is ripping PMI for their design, I don't really know. Based on the information they've each received from 797, both Allan and Chance could reasonably believe that they are each correct and that the other party is lying.

I'd say the only person who really knows for sure about the provenance of the pres is John Ma, and he isn't talking to us. We only know what other people say he said. Hearsay.

Me, I bought 6 pres and I personally don't care who designed them as long as they sound good

I'm with you on all of this. In addition I'd like to see the air cleared. Considering money has been exchanged I don't see what's to loose in making this available for all to see, though maybe there are deeper aspects to it than I'm aware of and it could sour.

 

[nuemes]

So...it's a pissing match now? Your opinion is more valid due to post count?

Not a pissing match. Post counts don't matter so much as your contribution to this board, which has been 9 posts regarding only the Group Buy as of yet. If you came here just to buy in the Group Buy I have no issue.

However, telling everyone here, "this seriously has to stop" and, "If it sounds like crap it's not because Chance lied to us or Alan told us so." tells me:

#1. It doesn't seriously have to stop
#2. How do you know "if it sounds like crap it's not because Chance lied to us or Alan told us so"? Is that not the issue here folks - that we're getting mixed messages about the product we were told we're getting? Is getting down to the bottom of it not your interest? Excellent then, you have no beef and don't have a need to post letting those of us that care know that, "this seriously has to stop."

And yeah, if the pre's suck I will hold you to buying them from me. If they don't I'll be making sweet recordings