Getting bored with beats and synth loops! Help!

[Bristol Posse]

It sounds like he's trying to build a house from the top down instead of starting with a strong foundation and working from there.

Well maybe not, it deppends if you play an instrument or not. a lot of people get an idea for a hook or a chorus or whatever just riffing around on a guitar or piano etc which with some work can eventually be turned into a song

you can also just riff around with loops to a degree to see if inspiration comes.

However... I would agree that you should not have an expectation that this will lead you to creating a master piece in one short "riffing around" session. Creating a finished song takes a lot of time, effort, re writes etc before it's done (or at least done enough you can stop messing with it anymore)

 

[kcearl]

NO...there's nothing wrong with loops...or any other tool...but as the OP testified, he's bored and stuck BECUASE he is only relying on beats-n-loops…with no real "song" in mind.
That approach assumes/expects that the loops-n-beats will just spit out a song for you.

That's why the other stuff is needed….the traditional songwriting skills/efforts.
A good songwriter can use loops effectively in composition and recording.
Someone who has no songwriting skills will only use loops like a kid uses an erector set...just sticking pieces together randomly...hoping some fit in a pleasant way.

Dude you are way of target...no one is suggesting just sticking bought loops together amounts to much musicianship...

Writing a rhythm guitar piece with an intro verse bridge chorus is little more than four guitar loops...same with drums, bass parts...They are just played/recorded continuously generally so that isn't always obvious...

Using loops you make yourself works in many styles of music...Im sure musicians like Orbital, Chemical Brothers, Underworld etc etc are very good at arranging songs, manufacture their own loops and make millions doing it...yet they arent great songwriters because of this?


I dont agree...no where is there a mention of traditional music in the initial post

That approach might allow someone to "create" something without actually *writing* a song...
...but it's just sooooo "paint-by-the-numbers"... ...is it really creative in any way?
I think the time spent on that would be better spent learning proper songwriting skills.
There are MANY online sources and even formal classes for people who are interested, but I just think most are not…and they really DO want to just move loops-n-beats around and hope something good falls into place.

No it teaches you a little how successful musicians arrange theirs...

Its not something you have to follow or stick by but a useful exercise.


If you cant see that fine, doesnt make any difference

If you think songs in general dont follow "templates" then man I need to revise the classic albums Ive listened to over the years...because most genres follow a formula to an extent.

The OP should still give it a shot imo

Nothing to lose and plenty to learn

or you traditionalists can just wax lyrical for the next four pages how the youth cant even tune a guitar...who gives a fuck, maybe there's no guitar in their music

 

[kcearl]

Exactly. It sounds like he's trying to build a house from the top down instead of starting with a strong foundation and working from there. If you can't write a song or compile interesting ideas on minimal equipment then you really need to re-access what you're doing. It doesn't matter what musical genre is involved, either.

As for tutorials about the keys to songwriting...they're rubbish, IMHO. You can't teach somebody how to write a good song. It takes a good ear, actual musical talent and a healthy dose of trial-and-error.

Yep and some helpful advice from more experienced musicians can certainly help dont you think?


Analysing other arrangements by successful artists can also help perhaps?

Well maybe not, it deppends if you play an instrument or not. a lot of people get an idea for a hook or a chorus or whatever just riffing around on a guitar or piano etc which with some work can eventually be turned into a song

you can also just riff around with loops to a degree to see if inspiration comes.

However... I would agree that you should not have an expectation that this will lead you to creating a master piece in one short "riffing around" session. Creating a finished song takes a lot of time, effort, re writes etc before it's done (or at least done enough you can stop messing with it anymore)

yup....

Doesnt matter what you use to produce a song...if it inspires you use it...

 

[miroslav]

Dude you are way of target...no one is suggesting just sticking bought loops together amounts to much musicianship...

I wasn't suggesting that anyone was suggesting anything....
Who said anything about "bought loops"...?

...no where is there a mention of traditional music in the initial post

There isn't mention of ANY specific type of music...that’s not relative to the question…the OP said he was bored (with whatever music he was doing).
So maybe he needs to try a different approach...?

Besides...if you read a few posts above...the OP already admitted that I was right in my observation:

Miroslav, yep I'm guilty!

"NO...there's nothing wrong with loops...or any other tool...but as the OP testified, he's bored and stuck BECUASE he is only relying on beats-n-loops…with no real "song" in mind.
That approach assumes/expects that the loops-n-beats will just spit out a song for you."

No need to get all defensive KC…just 'cuz YOU like using loops.
I wasn't cracking on loops...the issue is in how they are used and to what end...and if it ain't working to produce anything interesting, then maybe it's because there is a need for a basic songwriting foundation before the loops become focused productions instead of just doodling.
Yes...sometimes doodling is fun and can lead to more focused compositions...but again...it wasn't working for the OP.

 

[grimtraveller]

I normally think of a drum sequence and try and get that recorded in cubase, then add bass etc from there. I dont think of the melody until the drums are on cubase. Guess thats my problem, or one of them?

Not necesarilly. I've been writing songs for 30 years and the overwhelming majority of them were fully formed pieces of music before there was any melody or lyrics. I was watching this programme on U2 a couple of nights ago and the bass player Adam Clayton said a similar thing. He said that he, the Edge and Larry Mullen would just jam around and eventually a sound and structure would emerge. Then Bono would find lyrics and a melody and at that point a song would arrive. Then they'd beat the whole into shape.
There are so many ways of writing a song. Led Zeppelin's "Rock and roll" came into being purely on the strength of John Bonham's drum intro. He was just pounding that and the rest of the band just fell in with it and moreorless on the spot they created that song.
The thing I'm confused about though, you say that drums go down first, then you'll add bass. Does this mean that your songs initially exist only as drum patterns ?
This may seem like an odd question, but do you know or can jam with any drummers or percussionists ?

As for tutorials about the keys to songwriting...they're rubbish, IMHO. You can't teach somebody how to write a good song. It takes a good ear, actual musical talent and a healthy dose of trial-and-error.

It's a matter of debate whether you can teach someone to write a good song. But you can certainly teach someone how to write a song, same way kids get taught to write poetry at school. Initial efforts may be lame. But you can show someone all kinds of aspects of songwriting. Of course, having shown various bits, then it's up to the aspiring writer to work on it. Trial and error is fast becoming the great lost artifact of many things, but I swear by it.
Where I do agree with Rambone's statement though is in this; sometimes, people that have been shown how to write songs can be so stuck in that 'groove' that they learned, that they can be blind to new and different things, rather like the way many classically trained instrumentalists and singers can be so rule bound that they almost have a pathological reaction to something outside of their training.

Well maybe not, it depends if you play an instrument or not. a lot of people get an idea for a hook or a chorus or whatever just riffing around on a guitar or piano etc which with some work can eventually be turned into a song

you can also just riff around with loops to a degree to see if inspiration comes.

However... I would agree that you should not have an expectation that this will lead you to creating a master piece in one short "riffing around" session. Creating a finished song takes a lot of time, effort, re writes etc before it's done (or at least done enough you can stop messing with it anymore)

I'd go along with that. Often a song can be just around one chord or pattern and yet be packed with more goodies than a constantly shifting journey through every scale and key known to man and beast.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

The whole concept of "loops" is fucked. It's for idiots.

There, I said it.

But truthfully that's how I feel.

Real songs, real drummers don't play that way. Every bar is different. The drummer plays with a different energy in the second verse than the first and every bar in the song is different. Loops are fucked and I hate the concept. It's geared to bozos who are too lazy to learn how to play a musical instrument. It's 1 notch above pressing play on a CD player.

Ouch!

Loops have their place and have been used to make amazing songs. Yeah, they suck when used in uninspired ways. But so does anything else.

 

[Chibi Nappa]

As for tutorials about the keys to songwriting...they're rubbish, IMHO. You can't teach somebody how to write a good song.

Dude, WHAT?!

So, a young Mozart was just wasting his time hanging around with Bach then? The greats spontaneously generate thousands of years of music theory in their heads without any outside help? Do you have a proper understanding of how complex music theory is?

 

[kcearl]

I wasn't suggesting that anyone was suggesting anything....
Who said anything about "bought loops"...?

Then nothing wrong at all with making your own loops...its like making a guitar riff or a great drum beat, no more or less

There isn't mention of ANY specific type of music...that’s not relative to the question…the OP said he was bored (with whatever music he was doing).
So maybe he needs to try a different approach...?

Besides...if you read a few posts above...the OP already admitted that I was right in my observation:

well I guessed it wasnt blues or classical..turns out I was right

No need to get all defensive KC…just 'cuz YOU like using loops.
I wasn't cracking on loops...the issue is in how they are used and to what end...and if it ain't working to produce anything interesting, then maybe it's because there is a need for a basic songwriting foundation before the loops become focused productions instead of just doodling.
Yes...sometimes doodling is fun and can lead to more focused compositions...but again...it wasn't working for the OP.

I never wrote what you quoted...so I wasnt defensive


I do use loops though, I used guitar riffs, i use midi files, I use outboard synths, I sing, I use samples...who cares?

I can tune a guitar and I have studied music theory

yet

My music is amateurish and my composition and arrangement need much more work...so what


again who cares?

its only homerecording...we should all stop and buy nintendos

 

[Rambone]

Dude, WHAT?!

So, a young Mozart was just wasting his time hanging around with Bach then? The greats spontaneously generate thousands of years of music theory in their heads without any outside help? Do you have a proper understanding of how complex music theory is?

The quote you used doesn't address music theory. the only times I've addressed "music theory" in this thread is when I said that every musician should have a grasp of the basic (at the very least). I've known people who have music equipment that i could only dream of owning and yet they don't know the difference between notes on a scale or 7/8 and 3/4. People should know that stuff before jumping straight to recording with computers and complaining about loops being boring.

Good songwriting takes a creative spirit, some talent and the willingness to fail (many times) before you succeed. Songwriting guru books (which is NOT the same thing as music theory) can't teach that.

 

[kcearl]

The quote you used doesn't address music theory. the only times I've addressed "music theory" in this thread is when I said that every musician should have a grasp of the basic (at the very least). I've known people who have music equipment that i could only dream of owning and yet they don't know the difference between notes on a scale or 7/8 and 3/4. People should know that stuff before jumping straight to recording with computers and complaining about loops being boring.

dont agree

Good songwriting takes a creative spirit, some talent and the willingness to fail (many times) before you succeed. Songwriting guru books (which is NOT the same thing as music theory) can't teach that.

do agree

 

[miroslav]

Then nothing wrong at all with making your own loops...its like making a guitar riff or a great drum beat, no more or less

well I guessed it wasnt blues or classical..turns out I was right

I never wrote what you quoted...so I wasnt defensive

I do use loops though, I used guitar riffs, i use midi files, I use outboard synths, I sing, I use samples...who cares?

I can tune a guitar and I have studied music theory

yet

My music is amateurish and my composition and arrangement need much more work...so what

again who cares?

its only homerecording...we should all stop and buy nintendos

Well...now you really DO seem a bit defensive!

The point isn't about homemade or store bought loops...and it isn’t about the type of music...nor does it have anything to do with this being HR or wherever.
The OP stated he was in a rut with his loops and wasn't able to take them to any higher level besides messing around for a bit and then getting bored...repeating the process...and then the same thing all over again.
He was basically asking how to move forward and get out of that rut.
I think the answers most have given (mine included) pretty much covered it for him...how to actually get some finished *songs*.

Again...there's nothing wrong with loops, and used the right way, they can give the right sparks for more complete productions.
But I do know what the OP was frustrated about (at least he came to the right conclusions). I use to do that a lot back in the early 90s when MIDI was the big deal.
Run up a bunch of sequences...map them to all kinds of synth patches...and then layer in a bunch of beats/FX....Ooooooooooh....how cool.....
...then after awhile, do another one.
I moved on from that and got back to more straightforward song composition…but, I still use the sequences/loops on some things when needed, and some of them blew out into more complete songs.

As newbies discover the new technology…they all go through this phase. The Internet is full of so-called "songs" that are nothing more than a bunch of loops/beats with some kind of sound design FX slathered all over them, etc...and that's it.
Sorry…but most of that ain’t really songwriting. There has to be some sort of intent driven by ideas and imagination so that it tells whatever story you wanted to tell.
It’s more than just turning on bleeps, buzzes and beats and letting them fall into some sort of “mix”.
And don’t get me wrong…I’m not just into “Blues” or “Classic Rock”… …I like all kinds of music, and that very much includes Electronic/Techno/Ambient stuff.

 

[dintymoore]

There's two types of songs: inspired and contrived.

All my good songs have come to me in a flash, most of the time not even when I'm near a musical instrument. I've written most of my best stuff away from my studio. I never write down my ideas, for unknown reasons I never forget them. I have several songs I've been singing in my head since the 70's and I've never played them. Those are inspired songs. Sometimes when I do sit at the piano I will be bummed to find out that the song is in B and the chords are awkward.

Then I have times when I sit at the piano and try to to write. And my hands go through the same muscular memory motions and I play the same old shit. Total bullsit, and I don't spend time doing it anymore 'cause the results will always be contrived. Luckily I still have "flash" song gifts that make me feel like I am a channel.

So I write almost all my stuff when I'm doing stuff like washing my car. I work on the song, and the next day work on it, and before I go into the studio, it's like I'vce heard it on the radio for years. I know all the parts. I've been doing this since the 60's. I call the band, that band in my head the "Paper Route Band" because that's when it started, around 1968. I used to walk around on my paper route singing these grooves - those were my loops! For years, as a drummer, the only way I got to hear that band was by bringing charts to bands I was in. I've written a lot of charts. When MIDI came out in '83 I had another way of hearing the Paper Route Band.

That's my dumb little method. I woudn't expect it to work for anyone else.

So my advise is to do whatever works for you, if that's using loops, then use loops.

In the end, if the song is good, who gives a fuck? I sure don't.

 

[miroslav]

I have several songs I've been singing in my head since the 70's and I've never played them.

They can do wonders with medication and therapy for this kind of thing.





Man...are you still looking for a pencil and paper???


But I know what you mean...the stuff that just comes to you as in a dream, ends up being the best songs.
It took me 25 years to finally "hear" the right chorus for a song I started to write back in 1980!
I tried dozens of times to work out a chorus...and it never felt right.
Then one day...it just came out...I had the song finiished in 15 minutes.

 

[kcearl]

What a pair of gays...shut up already

 

[dintymoore]

Where's that pencil... I was sitting on it...

amd7000 - I sure hope you didn't think I was calling you an idiot. I don't think you are, and your comment "after this I get really bored with the loop and get the urge to delete the project and start again" proves it.

One thing - songs aren't in 4 bar phrases, they are in 8 bar phrases. Now that's a general rule with a zillion exceptions, but if you listen to a Louis Armstrong 1930 recording you'll see that it's almost completely 8 bar phrases, and if you listen to Lady Gaga's Telephone it's all 8 bar phrases. 4 beats to the bar in 8 bar phrases is over 90% of the dance music ever made, or bebop, or metal, or country... it's the 2x4 of music.

You can learn a lot by taking your favorite artist's songs and mapping a few out to see what the 8 bar phrases go like, when they repeat etc... You'll see patterns that appear over and over.

 

[commanda]

There has to be some sort of intent driven by ideas and imagination so that it tells whatever story you wanted to tell.

This just may be the crux of the matter. You gotta have something to say before opening mouth. Or picking up guitar, turning on drum machine, etc.

I know if I just pick up my guitar and start playing, it quickly degenerates into the same old, same old. Not that I've got anything against House of the Rising Sun, or a Stand By Me progression in C, but I've got to work damn hard to come up with something new.

 

[Opivy]

skimmed through this thread, and I see a lot of the same thing.

Why do some many people act as mucial elitists because they know more than someone else? Really the post that got me was Rambones.

Believe me, I know a great deal of theory and technique - I teach piano -

But I am definitely not going to talk down to someone because of it. Why should they have the need to "Understand music theory" if they can make something unique without it.

Many people can grasp concepts without learning what it's called, or how it relates to another concept. Put anyone with at least a little music experience infront of a piano, and they'll be able to play you a major scale ; but it doesn't mean they understand what they're playing.

What's important is what someone can do creatively, and not how much schooling or studying they have done.

Probably should've stayed out of this one - but I really disagree with the way some of you are talking. Not to mention it's really putting the OP down, rather then helping guide him/her in the right direction.

 

[kcearl]

skimmed through this thread, and I see a lot of the same thing.

Why do some many people act as mucial elitists because they know more than someone else? Really the post that got me was Rambones.

Believe me, I know a great deal of theory and technique - I teach piano -

But I am definitely not going to talk down to someone because of it. Why should they have the need to "Understand music theory" if they can make something unique without it.

Many people can grasp concepts without learning what it's called, or how it relates to another concept. Put anyone with at least a little music experience infront of a piano, and they'll be able to play you a major scale ; but it doesn't mean they understand what they're playing.

What's important is what someone can do creatively, and not how much schooling or studying they have done.

Probably should've stayed out of this one - but I really disagree with the way some of you are talking. Not to mention it's really putting the OP down, rather then helping guide him/her in the right direction.

Werd .

 

[kcearl]

One thing - songs aren't in 4 bar phrases, they are in 8 bar phrases.

exchange phrase for loops...because that's all they really are???

 

[dintymoore]

exchange phrase for loops...because that's all they really are???

Loops repeat, phrases don't, that would be the difference.

Put on most dance songs and it's 8 bar phrases, not 8 bar loops.

The first sequence setup I had was a Sequentials Circuits setup in 1983. It was all loops and it was a good learning tool.

Songs are based on the pacing of the sex act. Phrases build to an orgasm, loops are like having sex on cocaine... thus the OP's frustration.