Getting bored with beats and synth loops! Help!

[amd7000]

Hi everyone. I've just registered and thought i'd introduce myself and ask a few questions. I've been using cubase 5 with a couple of soft synths for about 2 weeks now and i'm really struggling to to create a song(break beat etc).

I start off with the drum tracks, then the bass and lead parts and come up with a 4 bar loop which takes me almost an hour. But after this I get really bored with the loop and get the urge to delete the project and start again from scratch. I just can't get past this point, I just find myself adding effects and listerning to the loop getting more bored and then just give up. I've done this 10 times so far!

Could anyone give me any advice on what I should do?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Write an actual song with chord changes and lyrics and maybe a hook, then use the tools you have to build up an arrangement around the foundation. That way you'll have a more defined goal in mind to keep you focused.

 

[Rambone]

Write an actual song with chord changes and lyrics and maybe a hook, then use the tools you have to build up an arrangement around the foundation. That way you'll have a more defined goal in mind to keep you focused.

THIS.

To the OP...that's not a very efficient method of writing music. To me, it has to be more organic than sitting at a computer and trying to find the right beat before you even come up with anything else. try sitting down with a guitar or piano before you try to create loops.

 

[dintymoore]

The whole concept of "loops" is fucked. It's for idiots.

There, I said it.

But truthfully that's how I feel.

Real songs, real drummers don't play that way. Every bar is different. The drummer plays with a different energy in the second verse than the first and every bar in the song is different. Loops are fucked and I hate the concept. It's geared to bozos who are too lazy to learn how to play a musical instrument. It's 1 notch above pressing play on a CD player.

What I would do is write out the chords on a piece of paper, map out the song. Then lay down a scratch keyboard part that is quantized so you don't need a click, and then add the drums, bass and other parts to the point that you'll probably end up erasing the original keyboard part.

Now I shouldn't be so harsh on the whole loop thing because they are a great learning tool but the whole concept of using them is greatly based on ignorance of how songs are actually made and drummers play. Loops have sucked a whole generation of musicians into thinking that they are valid to make music with.

I don't think you'll ever get much real music with loops, but if you like them power to you and these are just 1 guy out of 6.5 billion's opinion.

 

[miroslav]

Is the art of songwriting slowly dying...?

I don't even turn on my studio gear until I have a finished song and production idea in my head.

Pencil and paper....guitar or piano...write a song.

 

[Rambone]

@ dintymoore and miroslav....

I couldn't agree more. The one thing that annoys me with the current thinking among many "musicians" is that they can should "write" songs like that. I've run into so many of them where I'm from. They usually have very little actual talent but they still pump out a lot of material through Garageband and the like (usually boring derivative nonsense). Some of them can't even tune a guitar properly, let alone understand the difference between B flat and C sharp. It's sad, actually.

 

[kcearl]

You dont need to understand the difference between a b flat and a C sharp, you just need the ability to get notes to work together...music theory is not a necessity but an advantage...

Also there is nothing wrong with loops, during down time I make loops and save them for other projects or when I feel they may work in something...using a pre recorded loop as the start of something creative is not "wrong" either...they are also a great way for beginners to learn to understand about song structure and how to use effects to mangle sounds and create your own.....


You guys talk like real music can only be made with guitars, real drums etc etc etc


To the OP...this is from another post in answer to someone...its will be a little lengthy a process but is invaluble when first learning about song structure, especially with no formal training


"A good way to structure songs is to make a template

take a track you like from the same genre and drag it in your DAW

then analyse it...by basically sticking an empty midi track for each separate part of the song and colouring it so it corresponds you can use it as a template for building your own songs in the future..

like

kick = red
snare = blue
pad = green
lead = yellow
note tempo changes, effects,
etc etc,

it might seem like a bit of work but once you've done it a couple of times its fairly easy and you can use the templates over and over again.."

If you are coming against a brick wall after a few hours you really need to be more disciplined in learning or how you are approaching this....its a lot more than sticking a few loops together for sure.

 

[amd7000]

Thanks very much for the advice. So I will have to use my brain more than the pc

Any books or websites that would help me start song writing properly? I really dont know where to start! Some times song ideas come to me just before I go to sleep when half awake but never think to write them down.

Once again thanks for pushing me in the right direction.

 

[grimtraveller]

and i'm really struggling to create a song(break beat etc).

I start off with the drum tracks, then the bass and lead parts and come up with a 4 bar loop which takes me almost an hour. But after this I get really bored with the loop and get the urge to delete the project and start again from scratch. I just can't get past this point, I just find myself adding effects and listerning to the loop getting more bored and then just give up.

How do you actually write your songs ? I'm not going to knock using a loop once in a while, they're actually not that new. In 1968 The Pink Floyd used a drum loop very effectively on the title track of "A saucerful of secrets". Loops have been used on avant garde recordings almost as long and the Beatles were using tape loops as early as 1966.
However, much of the time in popular music up to the late 70s, loops were very specificly used as effects rather than de rigueur as they often have been since. Which is why the question of how do you write is relevant. I don't know whether what you've described is your actual song creation or simply your recording method. If it is the former, then as others have pointed out, it's not unreasonable to suggest you look at new ways of writing so you have a good idea of the song before you record it. Not every song will be that way but most should be.
Roughly what kind of music style are you after ?

 

[kcearl]

BTW if you can also get a copy of Computer Music #148 there is a great piece on arranging for beginners...

also dont worry if you have lots of sketches and/or unfinished tracks....its the scourge of the home recorder...a better vision of what you are trying to achieve with a song in the first place will help remedy this..

 

[amd7000]

BTW. I make my own loops, I dont use other peoples,is that bad?

 

[grimtraveller]

Thanks very much for the advice. So I will have to use my brain more than the pc

Any books or websites that would help me start song writing properly? I really dont know where to start! Some times song ideas come to me just before I go to sleep when half awake but never think to write them down.

Have a look through the "Songwriting" threads here at HR. Lots of interesting debates/arguments/advice there. Two books among many that I'd recommend are these two, "Songwriters on songwriting" by Paul Zollo:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Songwriters...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1275853625&sr=8-1

and "Written in my soul" by Bill Flanagan;

http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_sb...s&field-keywords=Written+in+my+soul&x=11&y=22
They come in the form of interviews and they are packed with written gold........

I guess the hardest songs to write may well be the first two or three. And whenever you have an idea, no matter how lame it may seem, write it down or sing/play/hum it into a dictaphone or some recording device, instrumental parts as well as vocal melodies and yes, drum patterns.
You'll get there and you'll find a more constructive way of using loops.
Oh, and by the way, welcome To HR !

 

[miroslav]

You dont need to understand the difference between a b flat and a C sharp, you just need the ability to get notes to work together...music theory is not a necessity but an advantage...

Also there is nothing wrong with loops...

............

You guys talk like real music can only be made with guitars, real drums etc etc etc

NO...there's nothing wrong with loops...or any other tool...but as the OP testified, he's bored and stuck BECUASE he is only relying on beats-n-loops…with no real "song" in mind.
That approach assumes/expects that the loops-n-beats will just spit out a song for you.

That's why the other stuff is needed….the traditional songwriting skills/efforts.
A good songwriter can use loops effectively in composition and recording.
Someone who has no songwriting skills will only use loops like a kid uses an erector set...just sticking pieces together randomly...hoping some fit in a pleasant way.

"A good way to structure songs is to make a template

take a track you like from the same genre and drag it in your DAW

then analyze it...by basically sticking an empty midi track for each separate part of the song and coloring it so it corresponds you can use it as a template for building your own songs in the future..

like

kick = red
snare = blue
pad = green
lead = yellow
note tempo changes, effects,
etc etc,

it might seem like a bit of work but once you've done it a couple of times its fairly easy and you can use the templates over and over again.."

That approach might allow someone to "create" something without actually *writing* a song...
...but it's just sooooo "paint-by-the-numbers"... ...is it really creative in any way?
I think the time spent on that would be better spent learning proper songwriting skills.
There are MANY online sources and even formal classes for people who are interested, but I just think most are not…and they really DO want to just move loops-n-beats around and hope something good falls into place.

 

[dintymoore]

I have been looking on Musician's Friend, Guitar Center and Zzounds for over an hour for "pencil and paper" and nobody seems to have it?

 

[miroslav]

Check on eBay...under the Vintage Gear headings....

 

[dintymoore]

Check on eBay...under the Vintage Gear headings....

Is if, the with, where ones I can dowload for free?

 

[grimtraveller]

Is if, the with, where ones I can dowload for free?

Try here, Dinty....
http://www.pencil-animation.org/

 

[amd7000]

Hi grimtraveller, sorry for late reply. I normally think of a drum sequence and try and get that recorded in cubase, then add bass etc from there. I dont think of the melody until the drums are on cubase. Guess thats my problem, or one of them?

I like chemical brothers, leftfied and the prodigy. I just love the way they can drive the beats and how they use effects.

Thanks for the links.

 

[amd7000]

Miroslav, yep I'm guilty!

"NO...there's nothing wrong with loops...or any other tool...but as the OP testified, he's bored and stuck BECUASE he is only relying on beats-n-loops…with no real "song" in mind.
That approach assumes/expects that the loops-n-beats will just spit out a song for you."

 

[Rambone]

That's why the other stuff is needed….the traditional songwriting skills/efforts.
A good songwriter can use loops effectively in composition and recording.
Someone who has no songwriting skills will only use loops like a kid uses an erector set...just sticking pieces together randomly...hoping some fit in a pleasant way.

Exactly. It sounds like he's trying to build a house from the top down instead of starting with a strong foundation and working from there. If you can't write a song or compile interesting ideas on minimal equipment then you really need to re-access what you're doing. It doesn't matter what musical genre is involved, either.

As for tutorials about the keys to songwriting...they're rubbish, IMHO. You can't teach somebody how to write a good song. It takes a good ear, actual musical talent and a healthy dose of trial-and-error.