Getting a bad sound out of a good kick

[twonky]

So, uuuuuhhhh.....

I have been at this for about 4 years now, I have recorded my fair share of kick drums.

Some were really amazing drummers playing bad kits some were bad drummers playing amazing kits.

Either way I have literally never had a problem recording a kick drum. Even if it was a total piece of shit w/ no tone, I have been able to get a totally useable sound out of it.

Well, I am in the rocess of recording some songs for a band I am in and the drummer has two really nice Pearl fancy upper end kick drums that he uses for different things. The are maple-one is(I am pretty sure) 22x18 and one is like the size of a floor tom like maybe 20x18 or so?
Anyway this guy is a very good player, his forte is Jazz, he is a total jazz nerd. But this band has forced him into more of a rock situation. I digress...The kicks both sound really good when played in the room nice and full and pretty deep not as thunderous as one might want to hear in a "pop-rock" kind of thing but good sounding none the less.

The probem is two fold:

A) He has a "dynamic" kick style i.e. he is really quiet and then really loud on a few spots, his timing is consistant, his dynamics are not.This can be very tricky to deal with. Because the actual sound of the kick changes as he changes velocity of his foot ! So its not just dynamics that are the issue.

B) The kicks sound like those red balls sounded when bouced on the ground that you used to play kickball w/ in grade school. Especially id the there is no dampening. It just has no depth or rump shakin' and no punchy qualities at all

I am using a Beta 52, I have been putting condensers in front of the head to try and get the sound of the whole kick more.

So finally we ended up using a really junky old Whitehall kick that for some reason sounds like total Quaalud Thunder on tape and we're going to use that. But I still cant figure out why I cant get a good recorded sound out of two different kicks that todether cost about 2 grand!?

If anyone has any word of wisdom, please hook the Twonk up.

Thanks

 

[Shailat]

Your right about the color changing from his dynamics...

Your going to have to get him to be more consistant or the sound will sufer. I push drummers every now and then and I have to remind them quite a bit as a habbit is vrey hard to break.

Compression will aid you some what. Are you versed in its use?.

I'm asuming the kick is in tune? Is the front head off? are you damping it with a pillow or something else?
Moving the mic from front to side will go from more attack(center) to more tone (side).
You might need to losen the head a bit (carefull ! to lose and its a dead duck).

Resort to EQ if needed.

 

[twonky]

Yeah, his foot is really the issue, like I said he is a great drummer but he is really in that finessed jazz mode all the time.

Its almost like he literally does not understand what I'm saying when I say "can you try laying into a bit more?"

I thought about compressing the signal but I still dont think that will deal w/ the weird tone issues. I am also a bit scared to compress to tape because I dont want it to be irreversable.

The kicks both have front heads one w/ a rather large hole 6-8" or so the little kick has like a 5 inch hole. Its seems though, that when the fron heads are taken off all I get is a "thud", which honestly is better than what I was getting befor but still bot round and good.

Think David Grohl on the In Utero record, now this is about as for away from the guy I am playing w/ as can be. But I want that kind of tone, where you hear the punch and the attack, but you can hear the wood and the whole drum.

I am no Albini, but damn I would like to get somewhere close to that.

Twonky

 

[Shailat]

Yeah, his foot is really the issue, like I said he is a great drummer but he is really in that finessed jazz mode all the time.

Its almost like he literally does not understand what I'm saying when I say "can you try laying into a bit more?"

Jazzers realy light feather the kick during part of the groove, Its part of their style. Push him and remind him !.

I thought about compressing the signal but I still dont think that will deal w/ the weird tone issues. I am also a bit scared to compress to tape because I dont want it to be irreversable.

No not to tape ...afterwards.

The kicks both have front heads one w/ a rather large hole 6-8" or so the little kick has like a 5 inch hole. Its seems though, that when the fron heads are taken off all I get is a "thud", which honestly is better than what I was getting befor but still bot round and good.

A double head adds overtones that are more closer to a jazz sound so make sure they are off.

Damping is important !. Are you using a blanket? Pillow?

Think David Grohl on the In Utero record, now this is about as for away from the guy I am playing w/ as can be. But I want that kind of tone, where you hear the punch and the attack, but you can hear the wood and the whole drum.

With the aid of EQ and mic placement I'll get you closer but first tell me about the damping.

 

[twonky]

Oh yes, sorry, uuummmmmm, yes there is a blanket in both kicks,
not totally mushed up against the heads but just enough to control the excess ring.

Gotcha, no compression to tape (I should be more clear) er, PC.

Ahhhite Shailat-lay it on me brutha! (and thank you in advance)



Twonk

 

[Shailat]

ok,

Just make sure the blanket is getting a BETTER thud sound and not a dull one. Make sure it rids of ringing as well.If your still not happy, try a bit of foam or a pillow. (Dont forget to put something heavy on a pillow or it will slid away...)

Mic placment - Remember what I said about center placement and side placement.

The distance also will play a part. Closer and you'll get more "thud" further back and you get more overtones.
Tilting the mic a bit sideways will help you avoid the air pushing into the mic and giving you a better low end tight sound.
Make sure the pitch of the kick is stable as well and the tension set the same all around the head.

Can you play with distance and position and come back and tell me what the result was?

 

[twonky]

OkeyDokey, I will try your suggestions. And report back on

Thanks again Shailat

 

[Tim Brown]

Let me ask a few questions:

1. Is he using both of these kicks at once? (as in a double bass setup?) Some drummers do this...I think it looks goofy as hell, but it is done.

2. What kind of Heads (Resonant and Batter)
3. What kind of Mallet?


If he is NOT using both of the Kicks at the same time, I have a trick for you to try.

Put muffling in the smaller Kick drum, and get the drum good and "Thumping". Put a Mic on the inside and aim it at the mallet spot.


Then, take the bigger kickdrum, and tune both heads so that it rings nicely in tune with the first kick. Set this IN FRONT of the Kick that he is playing, and put a mic's inside. NO MUFFLING in this kick, since it's sole purpose is to resonate.

That way you get the Thump from the Kick he's playing on, and the Boom from the second kick in front, acting as a resonator.
This is a common practice these days, even though it's not that well known among the home recorders.....generally because it requires an extra Kick drum that's not being used.

In most instances, the resonating Kick is tuned to the lowest note that it will make for the big boom, while the Kick being played is tuned up to an octave above for a good hard/solid thump.

So, put the 52 in the kick he's playing, and use a condenser in the resonant one....or you could put this out in front of the resonant one, and use foam or blankets to make a tunnel, so that you can keep the cymbals and other stuff out of it.



Tim

 

[twonky]

So we went back and forth for a long time trying different heads and different beaters ( all the while, I new that if we just used the really crappy Whithall it would sound right, but I wanted to let him exhaust every option before insisting that we simply use the shitty kick)

A lot of the problem was foot style, we just had to keep on him about using the jazz foot as opposed to the Motown/Rock foot.

I did try the two kick idea and really liked it, we didnt use io n this song but I will use it in the future.

Thanks for your help guys.

Twonky