for best quality mix down to all 8 tracks?

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i read about a guy that would mix down to his 1/2" 8 track using all 8 tracks. for example, record the left channel to tracks 1-4 and the right to 5-8, and he said this would be the equivalent to a 1/2" 2 track master.

does it really work this way? would recording one signal on to all 8 tracks be any better than recording that one signal to just 1 track?

-justin
 
he said this would be the equivalent to a 1/2" 2 track master.
No it would not be.
It would be equivalent (just one example of possible "configurations" :) ) - to Four Identical 1/4" four-track (two track (stereo) one way) master-recorders sinchronized together and then four of left channels outputs from each recorder mixed together to one "master left channel" and four of right channels outputs from each recorder mixed to one "master right channel" - and there you have your master.
It's fun to do :D
 
i read about a guy that would mix down to his 1/2" 8 track using all 8 tracks. for example, record the left channel to tracks 1-4 and the right to 5-8, and he said this would be the equivalent to a 1/2" 2 track master.

does it really work this way? would recording one signal on to all 8 tracks be any better than recording that one signal to just 1 track?

-justin

Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way, though I have seen it on the forums from time-to-time. It’s even mentioned in a recent book about using analog in the modern studio, but it’s a misconception.

Each track on a multitrack head has its own element, its own channel and electronics. On an 8-track (or any other multitrack) you will just get more hiss, which is cumulative per track. Some people also think they can push the levels harder because they’re covering more tape, but again, each track is a separate system (a separate recorder) so each track on the head can only affect the magnetic domains on the tape to the listed spec.

Each track on a ½” 8-track is about the same size as on 2” 24-track. You could master using two tracks and be ok, but a ¼” or ½” half-track mastering deck @ 15 ips is the way to go for best results.

On ½” half-track you have two elements, each covering about half the tape, so you get more headroom, less distortion and less background hiss.

:)
 
i read about a guy that would mix down to his 1/2" 8 track using all 8 tracks. for example, record the left channel to tracks 1-4 and the right to 5-8, and he said this would be the equivalent to a 1/2" 2 track master.

It's funny but I recall reading that same post a few days ago and having a bit of a laugh.... :D (Wouldn't that be the ultimate, to have a 1/2" 8 track and also a 1/2 track mix-down unit, all in one!:eek:). Anyway, doesn't work that way (unfortunately), as the guys above already mentioned....;)

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The main problem is that if you use a 1/2" 8 track to "master" on and send that tape to a plant for CD or album production they will play it back on a real 1/2" two track machine. All the guard bands (space between the 8 tracks) will now be played back as noise and hiss with no real content.
 
Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way, though I have seen it on the forums from time-to-time. It’s even mentioned in a recent book about using analog in the modern studio, but it’s a misconception.

Each track on a multitrack head has its own element, its own channel and electronics. On an 8-track (or any other multitrack) you will just get more hiss, which is cumulative per track. Some people also think they can push the levels harder because they’re covering more tape, but again, each track is a separate system (a separate recorder) so each track on the head can only affect the magnetic domains on the tape to the listed spec.

Each track on a ½” 8-track is about the same size as on 2” 24-track. You could master using two tracks and be ok, but a ¼” or ½” half-track mastering deck @ 15 ips is the way to go for best results.

On ½” half-track you have two elements, each covering about half the tape, so you get more headroom, less distortion and less background hiss.

:)

Mostly not so. Each time you double the effective track width you increase the signal by 6db but the tape hiss by only 3db. Hence a net s/n improvement of 3db. You get less hiss, not more.
That applies to say a half track 1/4" or 1/2" but also here.
The fact that each track has its own signal electronics etc is irrelevent. Summing the tracks still gives the improvement. Of course you have to sum the congruent tracks on playback to get the benefit. On its own, each individual track will be no quieter.

Richard King is right that it only works if you replay the tape on your summed multitrack, where the guard band noise is not being read.
There is also more risk of azimuth misalignment and instability issues because of potential phase cancellation of highs. Wide tracks arent all good news.


So you're right but as Beck says, why not just get a 2 track?

Tim
 
How about the other way 'round? Mastering on simply 2 tracks of an 8 track?

How important is bandwith for the master? I ask cause I noticed quite a difference between recording 2 tracks on a consumer Philips 4 track 1/4" recorder and the same 2 tracks on a 2 track 1/4" recorder (Tascam). The stereo recording on the Philips seemed to get more saturated then the one on the Tascam. I have to admit I liked that saturation effect on the Philips, I wouldn't mind knowing how I can push the Tascam to get the same results.
 
if you use a 1/2" 8 track to "master" on ... (and) ...play it back on a real 1/2" two track machine.

aaaaaaaw, I did not think about that possible scenario.
hmmmmmmmm :mad: :o :p
I thought "we are talking" about recording it that way on 8-tracker and play back then on the same machine.

now, that's a puzzle to imagine, or "think about" in theory how it may practically come out.
:confused:
 
I have to admit I liked that saturation effect on the Philips, I wouldn't mind knowing how I can push the Tascam to get the same results.
Here's what I can tell from my miserable experience and in accordance with my "taste" (I guess). - I have to admit that I like more the "sound" of Teac A-4300sx (1/4" four track (two track stereo one way that is) at 7.5ips) than the "sound" of Tascam 32 (1/4" half track, at 15ips) - to put it in primitive words: Tascam 32 does not do much good (sort of) ..heh heh :D
I never happen to test/experiment/compare Tascam 32 at 7.5ips yet. So have no clue.
I kind of dig the sound of Teac A-3340s (1/4" four track) at both 7.5 and 15 speeds, but I have never really listen to it comparetively to something else while paying close attention.
Also, this is simply subjective "evaluation", and there are other factors (electronics) may having effect in addition to just track width/speed factor.

So? !!!
so, what?

so, - blah blah :D:D:D
 
Good to know I'm not the only one that noticed this (and has a taste for the results ;) ). I haven't got that Tascam that long so I'm still figuring out how it handles different ways of recording. Maybe I should get that dbx unit I asked about earlier, see if that will do some good... And if all fails, I can still choose to record on the Philips.
 
Here's what I can tell from my miserable experience and in accordance with my "taste" (I guess). - I have to admit that I like more the "sound" of Teac A-4300sx (1/4" four track (two track stereo one way that is) at 7.5ips) than the "sound" of Tascam 32 (1/4" half track, at 15ips) - to put it in primitive words: Tascam 32 does not do much good (sort of) ..heh heh :D
I never happen to test/experiment/compare Tascam 32 at 7.5ips yet. So have no clue.
I kind of dig the sound of Teac A-3340s (1/4" four track) at both 7.5 and 15 speeds, but I have never really listen to it comparetively to something else while paying close attention.
Also, this is simply subjective "evaluation", and there are other factors (electronics) may having effect in addition to just track width/speed factor.

So? !!!
so, what?

so, - blah blah :D:D:D

I must say I had a similar experience. I often dig the sound at 7 1/2 ips, especially so on my TEAC 3440 ('79), even if I have access to 15 ips. Both speeds, believe it or not, sound similar to me, which is damn good. Now, my TASCAM 34 ('83), which is 'newer', while still sounding good, at both speeds, doesn't have the 'punch' and 'dirt' (which I like), of the 3440. I think it may indeed be in the electronics, cause that's the only thing which seemed to have changed in the design. Some people, I noted, dislike the sound of the TEAC 80-8 ('76) and although I've only heard demos made on it, I love the rather distinct character (punchy and warm), which I'd not hesitate to call 'vintage' (although the term is oft times overused ;) ). Your 3340S probably has even more character! The older the electronics the cooler the sound IMHO.:D

----
 
...I had a similar experience.

----
Yeah.
And then we face never ending struggle trying to describe it (in "technical" terms, that is ;) )

Hmmm, Do we really have to?
... or do we really need to?

:)
 
Part of what you are hearing as you go to newer machines is improvements in head design. The older Tascam machines (80-8, 3340, 3440, etc) had a significant head bump "problem" that was "solved" on the next generation machines (3x, 4x, 5x, etc.). For those not familiar, head bump is a bump (exaggeration) in the response in the lower frequencies that gradually smooths out as the frequency increases. This is caused by the geometry of the head design. Add DBX (as I had on my 80-8) and the "problem" is doubled as DBX accentuates any non linearity in frequency response. The newer machines were actually much flatter and accurate in the low end than the older generation machines. The lower speeds are also more prone to exaggerated head bump.
 
thanks for the info guys. i figured it couldn't have been that simple. the book about using analog in the modern studio is actually where i got it from.

-justin
 
The book is right though. Each time you double the number of tracks used for the same material, you reduce random system noise by 3db.

Cheers, Tim
 
Lets see if I can help make it a bit clearer. Adding another individual track of the same size is not doubling the track width. The benefits of doubling track width apply to unbroken width increase without a guardband in between. For example, the width of an individual track on ½” 8-track is about .040 inch. Even with ¼ half-track you roughly double the individual track width (more or less depending on manufacturer).

In other words, a track must consist of a wider single element and not two tracks separated by a guardband for the track width rules to apply. A wider track covers more square inches of tape per second, involving more magnetic particles on the tape, manipulated by a wider magnetic element (pole piece). With two or more separate narrower tracks for each left/right feed, the multitrack rules apply, not the track width rules.

That being said it is correct in theory that if two like signals of equal amplitude are added together, the total amplitude is doubled, which is a 6 dB increase. However, they must indeed be of equal amplitude. That means in the example from the OP the four tracks would have to be precisely balanced so that each contributes the same level to the total.

The noise/hiss generated by multiple tape tracks is cumulative and will be apparent as the dynamics of the music drop closer to the noise floor of the tape, such as in quite passages. Multiple tracks don’t help at the other end of dynamic range either. That is, you do not realize an increase in level before distortion by using two or more tracks instead of a single wider one. This is because the tracks are still individual elements covering the same area of tape. You can’t hit two individual tracks with any more level than you can one track of the same width.

For anyone interested in the math the equation is L = 10 log n, where L = noise in dB and n = number of tracks. For each doubling of tracks there is a 3 dB increase in tape noise. So combining four tracks increase noise by 6 dB.

In addition, the fact that you add electronic noise is not only relevant, it is half the issue. Each track has its own op-amp, resistors and other components that generate noise. Add to this the additional mixer channels needed to record and sum the tracks, and you have more hiss than you would using just two mixer channels (left/right). The hiss wouldn’t make the result unusable, but it does demonstrate that combining like tracks is of no benefit.

In summary, the multitrack rules apply here even when several tracks record/reproduce the same material. The track width benefit does not apply because you are adding tracks, not adding width.

Considering the phase issues, which Mr. Gillett mentioned, there are no good reasons to combine multiple tracks in a mastering role. If an 8-track is all you have you will get the best results using two tracks, preferably 2 & 7. Track 2 and track 7 are chosen because they are far apart and are normally used to set azimuth on a ½” 8-track. Yeah tracks 1 and 8 are the farthest apart but edge tracks are more susceptible to high frequency dropouts.

Hope this helps or at least makes it more confusing, which is the first step to figuring it out. :D

References:

1. Sound Recording Handbook - John M. Woram 1989
2. Practical Recording Techniques - Bruce Bartlett 1997
 
Well, here we go again...


If you read my post you will have noticed I said doubling EFFECTIVE track width, distinguishing it from a physically wider single track. Justin's question asked whether adding extra tracks of the same material and then summing them in playback reduces tape noise, just as does having a wider single track. I said "yes" and by up to 3db, per doubling.

No one was suggesting the INDIVIDUAL tracks in this configuration would have better sound quality ON THEIR OWN. Read where I said that this only applies when the playback tracks are SUMMED. That's when the benefit is attained, and only then. Thankyou for telling us what I already stated.

Nobody said either that you could now hit the individual tracks harder. Again you are answering a question that nobody was asking, and countering what no one asserted.
Neither was I suggesting that the noise benefit would be as much from summing two or more separate pole pieces, compared to a single track with no wasted space used for guard bands.

The electronic noise is only an issue in the sense that it is, or may be, part of the overall noise that you are wanting to reduce. If you have a mixer whose own self noise is a significant contributor to the overall tape noise in playback, I'd suggest there's something wrong with the mixer or the gain staging which should be attended to. Self noise of mixers in this situation should normally be well below tape hiss on a tape with no NR.
Even so, assuming it is a contributor, that same electronic noise (so long as it is random and not related to the noise in the other channels) will be reduced, along with the tape hiss, more than the congruent sound being recorded. The summing process doesnt discriminate between tape hiss and amp hiss. It discriminates between random and congruent signals, just like "the book" says.

Combining like tracks is of benefit in normal circumstances. Those circumstances presuppose random noise on each track, and common program on those same tracks. You say the recorded levels have to be precisely the same for it to work. That's an exaggeration. Yes, the common signals and their respective random noise floors need to be reasonably similar or there would be no point. Imagine one track with a 50 db s/n and the adjacent one with only 30db s/n. Summing them would just drag the good track down towards the bad. In that case, common sense says only use the better track.

But we are talking about a well maintained machine where the tracks were recorded at similar levels. And why would anyone want to record the same material at different levels on adjacent tracks, especially when your specific aim was to achieve some modest noise floor reduction by this method. You would be negating the whole point of the exercise.

"you are adding tracks, not adding width". Sure, but doing one EFFECTIVELY achieves the other, in noise terms, if not quite as effectively due to guard band losses. No one in their right mind would deliberately buy a recorder with 8 tracks if its intended use was as a 2 track mastering machine. A total waste of money. But Justin was asking about an existing 8 track machine.

Do a simple test, a test I have done a thousand times in remastering old cassette tapes. Listen to a program recorded on a stereo machine, but actually a mono program. Now sum left and right tracks. Now adjust the play head azimuth for optimal tracking. Now alternate listening between left channel, right channel and then mono sum. The summed track will have less random noise. Not a huge difference, but often enough to make a noticeable improvement, especially on an otherwise hissy recording.
This only works when there is reasonable similarity between the tracks. But they dont have to be precisely the same to yield a benefit. Sometimes it's a judgement call whether to sum the two tracks or just pick the better sounding one on its own.

You speak about the azimuth stability issue ( I had raised it first) but then curiously you recommend Justin use tracks 2 and 7 for 2 track mastering. In doing so you create a potential azimuth stability issue that would not have been as bad if using tracks closer to one another!

Why do we use tracks so far apart (2 and 7) for fine azimuth alignment? Because that is a deliberately hard azimuth test for the machine. If we then use those same tracks (2 and 7) for mastering material which will probably include centre sound stage material, (common to both tracks) and which may well end up mono summed in some circumstances, we are testing the azimuth stability of the machine, in a way that would not normally be such an issue. Far better, if we really have to do it this way (but why not just get a proper 2 track machine?) to use adjacent tracks like 4 and 5 - or perhaps 4 and 6 to avoid any chance of crosstalk.
And (I thought of this later) since it's a stereo mixdown, crosstalk between them is hardly an issue anyway. Adjacent tracks would be fine as well as lessen the azimuth error risks.


So you hope your post "helps, or at least makes it more confusing..."
I guess you've got all bases covered.
 
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Summing is cool. :)
Soooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!??????????
Uh, I see.
Let's me "sum it up" then, ;)
More tracks - less tape noise!

That's the magic of mixing.

heh heh heh

You never know what you may learn... :rolleyes:

/later
*************

P.S.
Two notes for a reader (as reminder):
1. NEVER TRUST A STRANGER.
2. Question Authority.
 
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