Flickering sound/volume dropouts... How do I fix this?

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opriddy

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I have a Tascam MSR-16, and I've always had problems with the signal dropping out when I play back my recording, but in the last year or two, it's gotten to the point where I can't even get a solid 3 minutes out of the unit before it does it again. Sometimes they are momentary. Sometimes they last up to eight or nine seconds. Sometimes they happen on multiple tracks. Sometimes it's only one. I used to think it was a problem with the tape, but even unused reels have done it to me. In the past, I've gone as far as to make a note of where the dropout happened, and then redo the whole take, watching for another dropout around the same time, but they don't seem to happen in the same place every time. I'm really frustrated with it. I paid $700 for the machine, got a few sessions worth of really nice sounding recordings out of it, and now I can't even get an entire song out of it without having the take ruined by whatever is going on, here. The closest repair center is two hours away from me, has a two week backlog, and charges $180 for diagnostics. That means I would have to pay $180 plus gas for two trips back and forth just to find out that it might not even be fixable. I uploaded a recording of what it sounds like to my bandcamp page, but unfortunately the rules of this forum have turned that into a huge waste of time for me, as I am not allowed to post any URLs in my first ten threads. If you think you can help and would like to hear it, send me an email at thebandpigeon@gmail.com, and I will send the link to you.
 
Does it affect all tracks or just one? Is the dropout on playback or record? (i.e. does playing back a piece with a dropout have the dropout in the same place each time?)
 
I uploaded a recording of what it sounds like to my bandcamp page, but unfortunately the rules of this forum have turned that into a huge waste of time for me, as I am not allowed to post any URLs in my first ten threads. If you think you can help and would like to hear it, send me an email at thebandpigeon@gmail.com, and I will send the link to you.

Just tell us the band name on Bandcamp and what the song title is. I'm sure people here know how to find things without a direct link.
 
@bouldersoundguy:

The band is called pigeon, but you'll want to use pigeon2 as the URL prefix, because i think there is another band with the same name on there already. The song is just listed as "sample of crappy, flickering tape sound". It's drums and a scratch guitar track. The really cruddy sounding part starts about 32 seconds in. I knew I could direct people to it without the URL, but I figured the more trouble it was to find, the less likely people would be to want chase it down. I don't think bandcamp even has a search engine. If they do, I haven't figured out where it is, yet.

@jpmorris:

It varies. Sometimes it's one track. Other times it's multiple tracks. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to which tracks are affected, either. I think the dropout is happening on record, because each time I play a particular recording back, it's in the same place. However, if I make a note of where the dropout happened, and tape over what's there (without resetting the counter of course), then make a new recording on the same tracks over the same length of tape, the dropouts will not necessarily happen in the same places the second time around. This makes me hesitant to believe that it's an issue with the tape, itself. Seems like they would always be in the same places if it were.
 
I am not allowed to post any URLs in my first ten threads. .
It's 10 posts, not threads ........... just go post something in a few threads ..... it'll take ya' a couple of minutes.
 
Just listened to the sample of the issue.

It could be just a case of the heads not being completely clean as it doesn't take much build up of dirt to cause random dropouts like that which don't stay in the same place on re-recording over it.

Try another recording with the heads completely cleaned first and at the earliest sign of a drop out, stop and clean the heads again.

Might be bad tape with a bit of the sticky shed syndrome starting to act up. What tape are you using and how old is it?

Cheers! :)
 
Yeah, that sounds to me like an actual tape dropout rather than an electronics problem. I think I am hearing the high end drop off. Now there might be a mechanical problem with the tape coming away from the heads for a moment or two, but as Ghost says, the more likely suspect is muck on the heads or the tape starting to shed.

EDIT: Narrowtrack machines are more sensitive to shed tape as each head element is thinner. Also, bear in mind that edge tracks are more prone to dropping out even at the best of times - I don't know what arrangement you used for the tracks, but it's usually best practice to keep things like bass closer to the edges because the high frequency loss will be less noticeable if it does drop out.
 
Thanks. That's good stuff to know. I've been trying to keep the heads and tape path as clean as I can, but if there's something leaving a constant trail of debris on them, I think I know what the culprit is. I bet most of the debris is coming from the rubber roller. A while back I accidentally melted part of it with alcohol, and because replacing the part would have been outrageously expensive, I cleaned all the residue off of the old one and used a different material as a gripper. That part is probably wearing down. Although only the bottom of the tape comes in contact with this piece, it is getting rolled around a reel that stacks the surfaces top to bottom, so both sides of the tape could potentially come in contact with the debris at some point. I priced those rollers at $80. $80 is a lot to pay for something that might not even fix the problem. And even if it does eliminate some of the dropout, I still experienced some level of this before the alcohol incident even happened, which means some amount of it had to have been coming from something else. I can't afford to get it looked at professionally and I can't afford to buy new tape every time I want to record something. I guess I'm gonna have to just sell the machine as is. Seems like a waste, but I guess those are my options. It's getting harder and harder to find technicians who are even willing to look at stuff like this. I could almost buy a new machine for the cost of a repair bill and a few reels of tape. Hardly seems worth it.
 
Sorry to read that selling the deck is your only option. But I guess its a technology issue where so many people are now coming onto the recording scene who were brought up in the digital era and the only thing they know about analog recording is that its got a warmer sound to it and don't really know too much more then that before they dive in and buy a machine, often without a budget for any maintenance or good fresh tape, which isn't cheap.

Oh well.

Cheers! :)
 
I've never actually used a digital machine. I upgraded to reel to reel from a vestax six track cassette machine. I've owned it for eleven years and never had a single problem with it. I bought the reel to reel unit on the recommendation of a couple friends, both of whom said they never had any trouble with theirs, and that they reused tape all the time. Also, at the time I bought it, there were two shops within ten minutes of my house that worked on reel to reel. They're both out of business now.
 
I've never actually used a digital machine. I upgraded to reel to reel from a vestax six track cassette machine. I've owned it for eleven years and never had a single problem with it. I bought the reel to reel unit on the recommendation of a couple friends, both of whom said they never had any trouble with theirs, and that they reused tape all the time. Also, at the time I bought it, there were two shops within ten minutes of my house that worked on reel to reel. They're both out of business now.

Apologies for my previous post. My rant was more of a generalization formed out of my experience here seeing many newcomers to Analog who are jumping into buying stuff without any prior knowledge of basic maintenance issues or who are using older tapes which might be succumbing to sticky shed syndrome. And as you're a new member here, I assumed you might have been yet another of that crowd.

Anyway, like I said, sorry to see that selling the machine is your only option.

Cheers! :)
 
This problem you are experiencing is very very minor in the grand scheme of things, and it does not sound like there is anything wrong with your deck.

1. You need to replace the rubber on your pinch roller. Send it in to Terry's Rubber Rollers: Terry's Rubber Pinch Rollers & Wheels
This is not a big deal and part of the normal maintenance that you need to do over time. Most pinch rollers are really easy to remove. It doesn't cost very much.

2. Clean the ENTIRE tape path with Q-tips and 91% alcohol. Make sure you get everything (including little corners, metal rollers, etc) really well. Once you're done, do it again. Then do it a third time.

3. Get a demagnetizer and demag the heads and metal parts in the tape path. A used demagger is only a few bucks on eBay.

4. Try a different reel of a different type of tape.

After doing these things, there is a pretty good chance that your problem will be solved.

Selling the deck doesn't make much sense unless you're ditching analog altogether, because these kinds of things can come up with any tape deck, and you're more likely to find a machine that has problems (usually worse than these) than you are one that works perfectly all of the time.

For what it's worth, my general rule of thumb is to set aside at least the same amount of money you spend on any machine for initial maintenance/repair costs.
 
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What kind of tape are you using and was it new when you bought it? Sounds like a tape problem. The rubber roller is likely a separate issue, but one that still needs to be addressed.
 
Dont get discouraged. It is most likely minor and you will be back on your way with a little effort.

" A while back I accidentally melted part of it with alcohol, and because replacing the part would have been outrageously expensive, I cleaned all the residue off of the old one and used a different material as a gripper"

This caught my attention though. Which rubber roller? Is it the pinch roller? That is the one that moves to come in contact with the capstan. What different material did you use and how did you apply it? If it is in fact the pinch roller, there may be a problem as that is a precision piece of molding. I havent figured out why those things were molded in materials that simple alcohol creates a problem for. (I mean HELLO, there is going to be alcohol around this part during cleaning). I have redone yucky pinch rollers for my machines, but I work at a place that does elastometric molding. I now do my pinch rollers in a material that is impervious to alcohol, whiskey, soda...well you get the picture.

Can you post a picture of the rubber part in question?

Also, time to review what makes and hopefully the date of manufacture for the tapes you are using.

Once the roller is sorted and tape is not an issue there is no reason that you cant use tape over and over and over, while messing around. A new roll of tape is in order when you are ready to track your final masterpiece....

Tape machines come with maintenance.

We are here to help.
 
@Beck: Some of the tape was new and some was used, but I was never able to detect a substantial difference between the new and used, in terms of dropouts. They pretty much all did it at some point during the first use. The only tape spool I bought that did not have a single dropout anywhere on it was actually a used partial roll. I think that one was Scotch, going by the brand on the reel, but that may not have even been the original reel. The new stuff was mostly Ampex 406, but there were a couple from a brand called AGFA. As for the age, I really don't know. I was under the impression that they don't make this stuff any more, so I just assumed most of the magnetic half inch tape in existence is probably pretty old. Any time I bought tape, I was kind of at the mercy of whatever I could find on ebay, and since the limited experiences I had with unused tape didn't indicate that it was any less likely to ruin the takes than a used one, I typically looked for whatever I could find that was used.

@lonewhitefly: I haven't used pure alcohol, but I have cleaned the head and tape path with regular diluted household alcohol several times, and it's typically only a couple uses before it starts acting up again. As for demagnetizing it, I got a new degaussing wand last year and used it once, but couldn't tell that it changed anything, really. I watched several tutorials on how to do it, and they all said the same thing so I assume I did it correctly.

@mdainsd: It wasn't the pinch roller. Looking at the front of the machine, it would be the very next roller to the right of the pinch roller. The first time I removed it to clean the melted rubber off of it a year ago, the threaded shaft on the inside of the cap (the part that screws the cap onto the roller) broke right off. Evidently, it was just plastic. I used alcohol to clean off the vast majority of the residue, and replaced it with a strip of adhesive foam rubber of the same width, like what you would find in the plumbing section at Home Depot. I had already checked out that Terry's Rubber Rollers page. That's where I learned how expensive the replacement would be. He has a picture of the kind I'm talking about on his page. It's priced at $85. $85 viewed as a normal cost for a random piece of equipment doesn't really seem like much if we're talking about an effects pedal, or a couple mic stands, or something that we know is going to do exactly what we want it to do before we buy it, but $85 for something that might not even fix the problem is a lot for someone on my income. Given that I've already tried all the other things suggested here, the next step would have to be taking it to St. Louis to get it properly serviced. That would be roughly $140 in gas, plus a minimum of $180 for the diagnostics which I was quoted over the phone, plus the $85 that I would have already paid for the roller that didn't eliminate the problem. That rounds out to about 60% of what I paid for the machine itself. You might call this a minor problem, but in terms of real dollars, the machine may as well be totaled. The majority of what I'm hearing from folks who are posting on this thread is that this type of thing is "routine" maintenance. If that's the case, it just doesn't seem to make any economic sense to me that I would have to routinely drop $400 on a machine that only cost $670.00. This machine has made better recordings than any other machine I ever used, but in the time I've had it, on unusable tape alone, I've already spent amounts equal to 30% of its value. Additionally, I had to pay $400 for a new mixer just to be able to record on it, since the inputs were all RCA size and the mixer I had before did not have individual direct outputs for each channel. That mixer stopped working about a year ago and the repair technician told me it wasn't fixable. I paid another $400 for a replacement mixer that only had half as many direct outputs as the first one, and now, I discover that I can't even get a single good take out of the machine because of this dropout thing. I have paid all that money and to this day, I've gotten about four usable sessions out of this machine. I'm sorry, but this is not an efficient use of money for a factory worker who has to support a family on only $40,000 a year.
 
The new stuff was mostly Ampex 406, but there were a couple from a brand called AGFA.

Okay, that is your problem right there ... Ampex-labeled 406 is almost all bad, with a few possible exceptions. The Agfa is unknown but could be bad -- buy a roll of new RMGI 911 or 468, or on eBay if you can find NOS Quantegy (not Ampex) 456, 406, or Scotch 206.
 
Okay, that is your problem right there ... Ampex-labeled 406 is almost all bad, with a few possible exceptions. The Agfa is unknown but could be bad -- buy a roll of new RMGI 911 or 468, or on eBay if you can find NOS Quantegy (not Ampex) 456, 406, or Scotch 206.

Cleaning guides and drop-outs sounds like a tape problem. As well as the tapes suggested above, BASF SM911 and SM468 is really good tape and shouldn't be too expensive on the used market.
 
Okay, that is your problem right there ... Ampex-labeled 406 is almost all bad, with a few possible exceptions. The Agfa is unknown but could be bad -- buy a roll of new RMGI 911 or 468, or on eBay if you can find NOS Quantegy (not Ampex) 456, 406, or Scotch 206.

Cleaning guides and drop-outs sounds like a tape problem. As well as the tapes suggested above, BASF SM911 and SM468 is really good tape and shouldn't be too expensive on the used market.
 
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