First build: Vocal practice and vocal tracking. Which wall isolation type?

[tombarton]

Hey all, first post!

I've bought a house and am going to convert the previous owner's freestanding art studio into my new sound studio. I'm a vocalist and realistically only ever record vocals at home, maybe the odd instrumentalist in for a session. A bit of mixing/production, but albums will still be mixed by a professional(!) Room is roughly 5m x 2.8m, with a standard ceiling that I will remove and open up to the gable roof (will almost double room volume and shape will help with reflections). We have only two immediate neighbours, so I don't anticipate much bleed other than the occasional dog or lawnmower. Almost zero street traffic.



I'm trying to get the balance between wall isolation and cost (aren't we all!)

Looking at range of DIY options between staggered studs, double stud, or just isolated drywall clips. Two varied-thickness layers of drywall likely with green glue as that seems standard.

The studio currently has one layer of gyprock/drywall, which I need to remove some of anyway as there's some damage and mould (which installing proper drainage outside will resolve) and to inspect insulation behind.






Any suggestions on how overboard to go with the isolation? Walls are currently plasterboard and possibly pink insulation underneath.

Also, is there a real need to isolate the slab floor at this stage? For new ceiling, I was even considering low R pink insulation at first and covering with breathable fabrics.



Cheers in advance! Tom

 

[mjbphotos]

Just for tracking vocals? fill the walls with rockwool, then a double layer of sheetrock, glued with green glue, and you're all set. Your room is too narrow to do any double-wall construction.

 

[tombarton]

Yep tracking vocals, some occasional session muso tracking at random times.

Reckon that'll be sufficient isolation? It'd sure save some time and money from double-walling or staggering studs. And you're right, it's a pretty narrow space considering I'll also have treatment inside taking up even more space.

I'm going to take the existing sheetrock off and see what the insulation's like underneath. I've got some 100kg/m3 Rockwool saved for this so if the underlying stuff is crap (I'm assuming it will be, if there's even any insulation there), I'll do some replacement. Will then try using floating / resilient sound clips and channel for isolation to two thicknesses of sheetrock.

Reckon I need to do the pitched ceiling in the same manner? Or try fluffy insulation stapled in with fabric at first and see what the noise is like?

TIA

 

[Mack Caster]

Also, is there a real need to isolate the slab floor at this stage? For new ceiling, I was even considering low R pink insulation at first and covering with breathable fabrics. Cheers in advance! Tom

The slab should be fine, you can use concrete paint of hardwood simulated flooring if you want to dress it up. Have you given any thought to building air silencers for your AC/Heat duct? If you are going to open the ceiling, it would be a good time to install them and they are cheap to do.

 

[tombarton]

Hey Mack - thanks for that. I'll build insulated inlet and exhaust soffits/boxes at either side of the room - to allow for air exchange as I'll make the room sealed as can be. Probably no budget for AC or heating at this stage (as this studio space is freestanding from the house - along with garage and carport). A smallish oil heater will do the trick in winter. Summer will be a little uncomfortable, but I will use a fan between takes (my biggest fan dare I say).

EDIT: Here's a quick sketchup of the space. Garage room is on the open side. Ceiling is currently sheetrocked where a normal ceiling would be (with loft storage above), but I'd like to open it to the roof for better reflections, heat movement and sound while singing acoustically/practicing.

 

[Mack Caster]

Hey Mack - thanks for that. I'll build insulated inlet and exhaust soffits/boxes at either side of the room - to allow for air exchange as I'll make the room sealed as can be. Probably no budget for AC or heating at this stage (as this studio space is freestanding from the house - along with garage and carport). A smallish oil heater will do the trick in winter. Summer will be a little uncomfortable, but I will use a fan between takes (my biggest fan dare I say).

Brother, you had me at Australia! Any idea what the proposed ceiling height will be when finished? I ran your dimensions through the Room Mode Calculator and if you keep the distance to a max height from slab to ceiling, to 12 feet, you will have the best size for evenly distributed modes. Another upside to this is you can now fill the space between the ceiling and rafters, with as much insulation as it will hold without compressing it. Just a thought.

 

[tombarton]

The height is up for debate really! I thought it'd be helpful to open it up beyond the standard 2.4m ceiling that's in there at the moment - to help with reflections and to help the heat rise a little. Does it get hard to calculate modes effectively with the gabled / trapezoid shape? I think I'd end up making each sheetrock wall 1/10 out of parallel to assist.

I could create a ceiling at 3.6m/12ft as in the image below:

 

[mjbphotos]

You're not using this room for mixing, so I would not worry about nodes.

 

[tombarton]

Hey Mike, I'd aim to do a bit, but you're correct - I think I recognise my skills as a musician over those as an engineer. So while I'd like to do rough mixes etc, you're right - I probably don't need to stress that much.

Does that change aspects of the build - in terms of having a decent space to track vocals? I know one house I used to rent, I made so many first-reflection panels that it became exhausting to sing in there. So won't be making the over-absorbing mistake again.

 

[Mack Caster]

The height is up for debate really! I thought it'd be helpful to open it up beyond the standard 2.4m ceiling that's in there at the moment - to help with reflections and to help the heat rise a little.

Your logic is dead on track. Many times people will expand their ceiling to help the bass leave the room so it is not as hard to treat.

Does it get hard to calculate modes effectively with the gabled / trapezoid shape? I think I'd end up making each sheetrock wall 1/10 out of parallel to assist.

It does a little bit but it is not the deciding factor. Since your room dimensions with a 12 foot ceiling gives you 1771.2 square feet, and the min recommended size is 1500 sf, you should be fine. The line of thinking is simple. If your room dimensions allow you to use it for mixing/mastering, than it will be great for vocals as well and now you know you can expand in the future if you decide to get more involved with your music.

I could create a ceiling at 3.6m/12ft as in the image below:

View attachment 100898

Like I said before, I know how hot it got when I was in Texas and I don't really think that could compare with your location at all. You will need to make the decision if you think having the advantage of adding in the pick fluffy stuff, followed by the pink blow in stuff, will be a benefit to you or not.

As far as setting up your room for vocals, it is a another beast completely. The same strict restrictions do not apply as in the room modes. As you have already realized, doing it the wrong way, makes your job harder and probably cost you more money to get inferior results.

You need to set your room up with the types of mics you think you will be using. The basic thing you need to do is place some panels on the wall in front of you, behind you, to the sides of your position and maybe one above you. Add in a front face shield, (You can make one for $20.00). This is just to control the room flutter. (echo). When you stop most of the flutter, your done. Just walk around the room clapping your hands till the echo is not heard as much.

 

[tombarton]

Yeah looks like raising the ceiling a little will help with heat, some bass management, and increase room size (of course!) You're right, would be pretty crazy to not have a ceiling with some fluffy insulation above it (for those 40oC/104oF days...)

Just one more question: Would it be best to choose the most dense insulation to replace what's in the existing walls (before I put on the additional layers of isolated sheetrock)? Or is a low-density fluffy type fine to manage low frequencies, given I'll create a floating double-sheetrocked and green-glued barrier in front of that?

 

[Mack Caster]

Yeah looks like raising the ceiling a little will help with heat, some bass management, and increase room size (of course!) You're right, would be pretty crazy to not have a ceiling with some fluffy insulation above it (for those 40oC/104oF days...)

Just one more question: Would it be best to choose the most dense insulation to replace what's in the existing walls (before I put on the additional layers of isolated sheetrock)? Or is a low-density fluffy type fine to manage low frequencies, given I'll create a floating double-sheetrocked and green-glued barrier in front of that?

Honestly, I would check with a local insulation company and see what advice they may have. IMHO, your room size is going to be great for vocals and I would put more concern towards keep the room cooler. You can always hang a treatment panel from the ceiling. Now, with that being said, I would use something like r-30 in the rafters as well as laid over top of the drywall. Then I would blow in lose insulation to the max. This is what they do in Texas for higher end residential homes. They say it will pay for its self in about 5 years due to cutting down on the ac bill.

 

[mjbphotos]

Just remember that with a roof/ceiling, you need air space between the insulation and roof sheathing - soffit vents and ridge/gable venting.

 

[tombarton]

cheers guys!

mjb: I'll make sure to do that (considering I'll be opening up and making new 'walls' in existing roof space, that's a really good point). I'm hoping there's sarking under the metal sheeting roof to help with vapour barrier - otherwise I'm gonna have a fun time on the roof moving each corrugated metal sheet one by one and rolling in some barrier.

When you said fill the existing wall cavities with Rockwool - does that mean I should go with the highest kg/m3 I can - or just a medium R / density level? I can't find the definitive answer in Build it like the pros - it seems to just refer to wall acoustic insulation. I know higher density is good for low frequencies - but unsure of the balance here between cost/frequency and actual need. I don't want this air gap/insulation to be too dense do i?

Mack: R30 was a spot-on guess. That's what's recommended here in Melbourne by the government for ceilings (R5 or R6 in our currency). Thanks again!

 

[tombarton]

Found the answer, which Rod Gervais endorsed:

Use the pink fluffy stuff - regular building insulation, with or without frk/paper.
It's cheaper AND it works better than the denser stuff for that application.

source

 

[Mack Caster]

Found the answer, which Rod Gervais endorsed:

Use the pink fluffy stuff - regular building insulation, with or without frk/paper.
It's cheaper AND it works better than the denser stuff for that application.

source

The second post was made by John Brandt, he is a member here and he is also the guy that designed the "FilmSonic" studio over in your back yard as well as co-owner/designer of the Room Mode Calculator. I interviewed him yesterday and I will be working on the video after I finish my other projects.

 

[mjbphotos]

JB is an expert, and often used to post here. However, much of his stuff is for much larger rooms than we have, like his membrane bass traps.

 

[tombarton]

Thanks Mack and Mike. I'll see how the walls look when we move in, in a month from now, and figure out the plan of attack. I can't thank you enough for the guidance.

Looking forward to seeing that video too Mack!

 

[Mack Caster]

Thanks Mack and Mike. I'll see how the walls look when we move in, in a month from now, and figure out the plan of attack. I can't thank you enough for the guidance. Looking forward to seeing that video too Mack!

Your very welcome Tom. Take plenty of pics and as JB says, once you get it planned out, check, and re-check and then run it by a few people. ;-)