Fake Drums. How bad is it?

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guitar zero

guitar zero

c = b#
I know everyone hates the sound of fake drums, but some of us have no choice. Here's my first attempt at adding midi drums to a song. Be brutally honest about what's good and what's not. To all you drummers out there. What would make it sound better? Thanks in advance.

 
First let me say, that I could care less if drums are "fake" or animal skins and logs, beaten to death and captured with a mic. Def Lepard to me is a good example of fake drums... there's plenty others too.

This recording is very nice. Great singing...oh.... the drums, they'll fake probably ALL non-musicians and way more than 1/2 of the musicians if you told them this was some old Getsch or Slingerland set your dad had sitting in the attic, that needs new heads and tuning (my attempt at humor). I think they sound fine.
 
I'm not a drummer, but In my opinion - the acoustics, mando and vocal are so well recorded and organic that the drums just stick out like a sore thumb to me. This song could use some real simple, rolling brush work, played by a good drummer. IMO it would make the song. If you have to stay electronic the first thing I would do is ditch the rimshot. Its a seriously cool song, I like it a lot!!!!
 
Whatever "fakeness" I hear is because you asked about it. The whole package is so good, I don't think I would have noticed. It's not a "drum song" per se, so for me, it works as is.

Dude--you work with some real talented folks! And you do a great job by them...

(Now I'll let the drummers pile on.)
 
If you had not mentioned about fake drums, it would be unnoticeable. All the instruments blend together. Which mic do you use for vocals?
 
Thanks for the feedback. Funny that you mentioned brush train, because that's exactly what I wanted for this, but I have not been able to find any midi brush train samples until yesterday. I shelled out some bucks for a new pack, so I'll fiddle with it. A real drummer is out of the question. Mr. duffy I think you're absolutely right. You confirmed my suspicion that something more subdued fits the bill here. I'll work on it some more.
 
The sounds themselves are fine IMO. I think it just sounds too busy. The little cymbal parts sound great, but sometimes the beats themselves sound like they came from a different song. I think here is where KISS would apply. A more simple part would be better IMO.
 
Ya know, for me, on this one it's not the fakeness of the sound of the drums that's the problem. They sound fine. It's the ridiculous pattern that you've got them playing that makes them stand out as out of place. If this were a real drummer you'd need to smack him in the face for playing that pattern with this song. The song is a nice little girly folkie tune, and the drums are like disco on speed. They don't match up.

Everything else sounds great. Just program/draw a more subtle drum pattern and you're good to go.
 
guitar zero said:
Thanks for the feedback. Funny that you mentioned brush train, because that's exactly what I wanted for this, but I have not been able to find any midi brush train samples until yesterday. I shelled out some bucks for a new pack, so I'll fiddle with it. A real drummer is out of the question. Mr. duffy I think you're absolutely right. You confirmed my suspicion that something more subdued fits the bill here. I'll work on it some more.
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I feel a bit like I was raining on your parade as so many others responded positively. There are two angles to look at it from

1. Would a typical listener notice
2. What would be the best fit for the song

IMO really simple quick brushwork would kill on this and fit better with the overall vibe, and I guess you kinda thought something along those same lines yourself. I think my opinion lines right up with Greg's - if you are gonna use electronic the part doesn't fit. It is too busy (specially the kick). Please for the love of all that is holy don't use the rimshot though :-)
 
Lol. Right. Many times, it's the programming/pattern used with fake drums that makes them sound ridiculous. The sounds themselves are usually decent enough - except for the cymbals. I don't know why the sample maker people can't get a cymbal right. They give you ten million drum options, but terrible cymbal samples. Anyway, you gotta write/draw the drum parts like a real drummer. I just bought ez drummer to help me out with song ideas so I don't have to do a million drum scratch tracks. I've found that if I just wanna make a basic drum track, it's easy. If I want it to sound like a real drummer, it takes about 7 times longer than getting behind the kit and recording it myself. Think like a drummer, program your parts like a drummer would play it, and it will sound like a drummer.
 
Greg_L said:
Lol. Right. Many times, it's the programming/pattern used with fake drums that makes them sound ridiculous. The sounds themselves are usually decent enough - except for the cymbals. I don't know why the sample maker people can't get a cymbal right. They give you ten million drum options, but terrible cymbal samples. Anyway, you gotta write/draw the drum parts like a real drummer. I just bought ez drummer to help me out with song ideas so I don't have to do a million drum scratch tracks. I've found that if I just wanna make a basic drum track, it's easy. If I want it to sound like a real drummer, it takes about 7 times longer than getting behind the kit and recording it myself. Think like a drummer, program your parts like a drummer would play it, and it will sound like a drummer.
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God I freaking hear you on cymbals. Bane of it all. I've gotten to the point where I've gotten some patches built up with closed and open hats and rides that don't make me want to vomit, but that took way too much time screwing around over the past year or so with levels, panning, compression, overhead levels, room levels, so on. But the CRASHES? omfg... As such I don't hit too many crashes, except for the song I'm gonna post tonight where I beat the living shit out of the crash for 8 measures at a time lol. As for your part about think like a drummer, I don't think a sometimes people understand what that means. For example, unless you are doing electronica, perfectly consistent triplets, 8ths or 16ths on hats @ the same volume level and sample sounds totally unnatural, especially when a lot of programming I hear goes on to add snare, tom fills and crashes all the while carrying the exact same pattern on hats right through, you know the things that can't physically be done... Over busy kick parts, that never ever vary the slightest bit in pattern are huge one. So yeah - lots of times people will say it sounds fine, but it could be more betterer and that's not just being anal about it, if they heard a second version with real drums, or even ekit I bet they would like it better. ymmv lol
 
Yeah "think like a drummer" is easier said than done for non-drummers, but that's just the way it is.
 
Greg, I guess I'm the one needing a slap in the face. I'm awake now. Thanks to you as well Duff. Honesty is what I came for, and you weren't afraid to spell it out. I'll start from scratch and get it right.
 
I agree, it's the drum part that doesn't work. It's WAY too busy. If you really want that sort of rhythm, use small percussion instead of kick and snare. The sound is of the drums is just fine.
 
guitar zero said:
Greg, I guess I'm the one needing a slap in the face. I'm awake now. Thanks to you as well Duff. Honesty is what I came for, and you weren't afraid to spell it out. I'll start from scratch and get it right.
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I think it is a great song, really like it, not a style I would do or play, but damn cool. Girl has that particular vocal style DOWN and like I said the acoustic instruments sound damn nice! Anyway - I'm not technically a drummer, but I drum on all my own stuff on my ekit. I don't have a sample set that matches with what I'm hearing in my head for this song but I have some ok stuff. I will take a whack at some drums on this tonight if you want. All I would need is a bounce without the current drums and the tempo, assuming you played to a click. I'm not looking for money or credit or anything else, just like the song and willing to give it a shot. Message me your email and I'll set up a dropbox. If you don't like em, don't use em. At the least it might give you some ideas. lemme know....
 
My ears might be deceiving me... but are you using autotune or melodyne? because there sounds like there's some unnatural wobles in there.

"but until THEN" the then sounds wobbly... and thats just one example.

Other than that, yes the drums sound fake to me but not to the average listener i dont think, i dont like the kick when it gets wonky. I think with a song like this the whole "less is more" trick might come into play.

Cool song though.
 
Farview said:
I agree, it's the drum part that doesn't work. It's WAY too busy. If you really want that sort of rhythm, use small percussion instead of kick and snare. The sound is of the drums is just fine.
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Thanks for taking the time to listen. I worried it was way too busy. Now I know.

chuckduffy said:
I think it is a great song, really like it, not a style I would do or play, but damn cool. Girl has that particular vocal style DOWN and like I said the acoustic instruments sound damn nice! Anyway - I'm not technically a drummer, but I drum on all my own stuff on my ekit. I don't have a sample set that matches with what I'm hearing in my head for this song but I have some ok stuff. I will take a whack at some drums on this tonight if you want. All I would need is a bounce without the current drums and the tempo, assuming you played to a click. I'm not looking for money or credit or anything else, just like the song and willing to give it a shot. Message me your email and I'll set up a dropbox. If you don't like em, don't use em. At the least it might give you some ideas. lemme know....
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I'll send you a PM when I've had time to bounce down a version without the drums. Might not be until Sunday. Kind of busy weekend with lots of Christmas parties and food prep, etc.. Thanks for the offer.

CMB Studios said:
My ears might be deceiving me... but are you using autotune or melodyne? because there sounds like there's some unnatural wobles in there.

"but until THEN" the then sounds wobbly... and thats just one example.

Other than that, yes the drums sound fake to me but not to the average listener i dont think, i dont like the kick when it gets wonky. I think with a song like this the whole "less is more" trick might come into play.

Cool song though.
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Yes there's a couple of obvious wobbles I need to fix.
 
many great comments, but unless you're looking for traditional stuff and want to catagorize it, I wouldn't worry about trying to emulate a drummer. Not to disagree with Greg, even though he is a great drummer,... and for sure saying maybe the obvious...just create something that sounds good. If it doesn't sound like real drums, but still sounds good, then I believe you're there. If it takes 3 arms to play what you've programmed, but still sounds good... then again, I think that's OK. Now the comments of too busy, don't fit, wrong style, etc... that can be definately good suggestions. But that's why Toontrack has made these goofy sets... the Electronic EZX, Claustraphobic... maybe many don't like them, but they're for just creating something rhythmic, with hopefully new twists. Do you want Dubstep on this... probably most definately not.

Well...all that rambling, you do probably want an organic, brush style, laid back realistic kit, that fits. But ya know...unless you try something different, you're really not creating something really new. But that doesn't need to be a goal too. But it is usually the best stuff that does. So many examples of that...from the "rock and disco" drums of Def Lepard, to Jimi's guitar to Union station's dobro and banjo styles, to Miles Davis to Devo....

Electric washboard with some flange?? ;-)
 
mixmkr said:
many great comments, but unless you're looking for traditional stuff and want to catagorize it, I wouldn't worry about trying to emulate a drummer. Not to disagree with Greg, even though he is a great drummer,... and for sure saying maybe the obvious...just create something that sounds good. If it doesn't sound like real drums, but still sounds good, then I believe you're there. If it takes 3 arms to play what you've programmed, but still sounds good... then again, I think that's OK. Now the comments of too busy, don't fit, wrong style, etc... that can be definately good suggestions. But that's why Toontrack has made these goofy sets... the Electronic EZX, Claustraphobic... maybe many don't like them, but they're for just creating something rhythmic, with hopefully new twists. Do you want Dubstep on this... probably most definately not.

Well...all that rambling, you do probably want an organic, brush style, laid back realistic kit, that fits. But ya know...unless you try something different, you're really not creating something really new. But that doesn't need to be a goal too. But it is usually the best stuff that does. So many examples of that...from the "rock and disco" drums of Def Lepard, to Jimi's guitar to Union station's dobro and banjo styles, to Miles Davis to Devo....

Electric washboard with some flange?? ;-)
Click to expand...
I think I understand what you're saying, and I think I agree, maybe ??? Just kidding. I hear what you're saying. I just got carried away on this one. I'll tone it down. I agree with you, if it sounds good, who cares whether it's impossible for a drummer with only two arms to play it?
 
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