Expert, wise, practical, advise needed

[Gidge]

at least you were man enuff to say it was a put down instead of hiding it behind a pussy ass " " like you usually do......

 

[chessrock]

Absolutely. The fact that differences between mic pres is subtle, and a lot of people can't tell the difference is not a put down.

The fact that I have the balls to give someone some actual wise, practical advice they can use . . . and then get flamed for it by a couple of idiots . . . is sad.

And yes, that is a put-down, Gidge. You and Crazydoc are basically class-A dipshits. I have no shame in saying it.

 

[guitarlover]

view from a newbie - Really!

I read this thread with a lot of interest as I probably would be classed as one of those who couldn't tell the difference etc etc...

Just to summarize the thoughts running through my audiologically challenged brain as I read the posts (and the acrimony):

I whole-heartedly disagree that half or more wouldn't be able to tell the difference between the cheap and the expensive pre-amps. If they were used side-by-side, I am willing to bet that almost everyone could tell the difference. The problem is that many if not most home-recordists (myself included) lack experience in side by side comparisons. In other words, if we've never heard a Great River, we can't know it when we hear it. I can say that I can tell the difference between a Behringer pre-amp an Art but only because I have heard both.

I do agree that our hearing becomes more acute as we learn to use it for different tasks. I play classical guitar. When I started years ago, I couldn't tell the differences between good, bad, cedar top, spruce top. latticed braced etc. You get the idea. You learn. But isn't that what this forum is for? I've learned a ton in the short time I've been around and for that I thank all of you.

As for the pissing match going on, I actually thought it was quite funny even though the remark that started it was condescending (sorry, it was). It didn't offend me though because I kept in mind (as was pointed out in another post) that this forum is to help hobbyists like me learn a new skill. I just hope that the more experienced among you keep that in mind so as not to crush the hopes and dreams of youngsters like me (I'm 49)

Regards to all, Steve

(editted for a syntax error)

 

[Rev E]

... The guy DID track with a GR and said that his friend, using a behringer, got better results ... CR is saying that too many people tend to go to the big $$$ equipment when they fail to get good results.

I find it hard to believe that a Behringer is getting better results than a Great River. But what I do suspect is that a novice with a Great River doesn't know what the do with the signal once it's recorded. I'd bet that the Behringer guy had better mic technique, added tasteful EQ (mostly cutting), didn't stress the summing buss of the Behringer and perhaps used a better interface... same goes with mixing the signal (whether in the box or not).

I would somewhat agree with Chessrock that there are probably quite a few folks who would not be able to appreciate the higher quality signal.

All in all, I still think that the best advice is for folks just starting off to NOT GET A WHOLE LOT OF CHEAP STUFF. Buy the "tried and true" inexpensive stuff and for goodness sakes buy quality cables. Start with a mic like a Sennheiser MD441 or a Shure KSM44 and a decent preamp like an RNP (or maybe that inexpensive Rane preamp MS 1b?), good cables (Mogami, Canare, Belden, etc) and a decent sound card. All of that is $800-1000 tops. The beauty of that is that when they do decide to upgrade (as we inevitably do) they will be adding stuff, rather than selling the junk to replace with a bit better junk... only to find themselves 3 or 4 years down the line selling and scaling back the junk to get fewer but higher quality channels. Blue Bear's advice is on point with the "coordinated" improvements. All parts of the signal chain have to be improved at the same time to really make a significant difference starting with the instrument/voice, mic, cable, preamp, Analog-Digital converters on the soundcard.

 

[Richard Monroe]

Wow, Rev, I thought *I* was an expert at buying stuff cheap! $800-1000 tops? You'll be doing *very* well if you can get that MD441 and a KSM44 for that. I agree with the priciple though. First, you get something, anything to record with. It doesn't matter much what, because it *will* get upgraded later if you stick with home recording.
Then you buy cheap stuff that pro studios use. Later, you buy expensive stuff that pro studios use. Starting with a really good dynamic is usually a good thing, as an SM-7 or an MD221 or an MD441 or a Beyer or an RE20 will stick around. Somehow, when you get to the upgrade, those won't be the gear that gets sold. I also believe that a really good, clean 2-channel preamp will never hurt your recordings, but the really good ones are damned expensive.-Richie

 

[chessrock]

I think I should be moderator of this joint.

If it were up to me, I would have ditched Gidge's initial remarks for being instigative. Then I would have tossed Crazydoc's remarks . . . just for being stupid.

Then I would have banned Gidge from HR for one week for being a winer. Then I'd ban DJL for being weird.

I suppose I'd have to ban myself for being abrasive and for using too many smileys. That would be kind of cool -- I might be the first moderator in history to ban myself.

 

[Gidge]

baaaaaaaaaanned on this BBS, i was.......

baaaaaaaaaanned on this BBS, baby......


at least that would be doing something........outside of Dobro, the Moderators here seem to lesbians........they don't do dick.......

 

[Rev E]

Wow, Rev, I thought *I* was an expert at buying stuff cheap! $800-1000 tops? You'll be doing *very* well if you can get that MD441 and a KSM44 for that ...

Richie,
I wasn't saying both of them for that price. I meant either of them as a starter mic, rather than lesser mics that will eventually get sold in the upgrade undertow. In my mind I think it would be better for a newbie to recording to have one or two decent channels than 6-8 low quality or mediocre channels. So starting off right is the key with something tried and true (e.g. MD 441, 421, Beyer M88 (fantastic mic, just got one of these), RE20, SM7 etc). Then get a good 25 ft Mogami cable and a decent preamp like RNP or perhaps that Rane pre that seems to be the cat's meow for Chessrock.

 

[crazydoc]

" Maybe they should say: "Expert, wise, practical advice sought that won't hurt Crazydoc's feelings."

Now that is a put-down. And that is also pretty sad.

My feeling weren't hurt, and have nothing to do with this. I don't pretend to have any recording skills or ears of gold - in fact, my ears are shot. I only took issue with your snobbery.

The trouble, chess, is that I can't really hold any stock in your opinions. You have a facile way with words and a style that is very enjoyable to read. But I can't have any confidence in the content. I have seen you spew opinions on subjects that you know very little or nothing about, such as impedance, transformers, op amps and other electronica, as if it were coming down from on high. But I do know a little something about these subjects - enough to know that you do not.

So when I read your opinions about other subjects that I am not well versed in, I really can't have any confidence that you know what you are talking about. And it's a little presumptive of you to say that 50% of the people in this forum wouldn't be able to tell the difference between something tracked with a Great River and an Audiobuddy (though that may well be true), when for all I know you are a member of that 50%.

Oh, and yes, there is such a thing as "warmth" - it may have something to do with the relative magnitudes of even and odd order harmonics, though I guess you must know all about that.

 

[chessrock]

Crazydoc, you're right. I don't know jack shit about how opamps work or transformers or the effect of power supplies on sound, etc. etc.

But like the geek I am, I study this stuff religiously on the Rec.audio.pro archives -- yea, I've probably read everything there is to read about every geeky subject there is. And when I pass stuff along, I basically reference info I've learned from guys like Scott Dorsey, Monte McGuire, Dan Kennedy, etc. Maybe I'm wrong and Dorsey's just a fraud, but the dudes on the RAP board seem to listen to the guy, and he's been very helpful in email correspondences I've had with him, so I pay very close attention to what he says and how he explains things to me and others.

In addition to the RAP board, I am also referencing personal conversations I've had with guys like Mike Stoika (of Sytek / Neotek), Steve Albini (Electric Audio), John Hardy, and a few others. Most of these guys love talking about gear, so it's very easy to approach them about it -- of course, sometimes it's tough to get some of 'em to shut up once you get 'em started. I also have a few "lower-tier" contacts/ friends who have worked directly under guys like Blaise Barton and Mike Hagler, so it's at least no worse than second-generation stuff.

And I'll admit, I don't have all the answers about accoustics, but when I talk about it, it's usually based on something I've learned from Ethan Winer or John Sayers -- something most people on this board do, in fact.

When I talk about tracking, mixing, mics, etc. I am usually passing along stuff based on personal experience. Experience that's included working with some guys you may have heard of, and some guys you probably haven't but are equally as knowlegeable.

In any case, even when I'm not speaking from personal experience, I think I'm drawing from some pretty good sources. And don't get me started on "warmth." To you, it's harmonics, but to the next guy, it's something else. If it can mean 100 different things, then, to me at least, it means nothing.

 

[arcanemethods]

I'd bet over 50% of the people here wouldn't be able to tell the difference between something tracked with an AB and a GR.

Not saying there's not a differene, because there obviously would be. Just that I'd bet that the majority -- as in over 50% -- wouldn't be able to appreciate it.

Sad, isn't it?

Not really. If 50% of us couldn't tell a difference, and I'll bet it's higher than that in a level controled double blind ABX test, then how many of the people listening to the results of something processed, mixed and mastered would be able to?

I think 99% of the elitism that exists among pro's is about penis extensions.

Harvey is very much onto something when he calls himself a bottom feeder. Probably proud enough of his penis as it is.


Bob

 

[arcanemethods]

so at what price point does matching stereo pairs become relevant, oh wise one?......

i believe if you are gonna stereo mic, matching them is relevant no matter what the mic costs.......

Precisely. Even more important if the lower cost one implies greater variance in manufacture.

It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant elitists often are.


Bob

 

[arcanemethods]

I bet he chimed in to try and help... you should try it sometime.

One day I hope I'll check out one of your ignored messages and actually find something relevant to the subject at hand.


Bob

 

[Blue Bear Sound]

Precisely. Even more important if the lower cost one implies greater variance in manufacture.

You obviously didn't read my post...... a specific price wasn't my point at all - as a matter of fact, you missed my point entirely.....

Learning to read properly before you post avoids making you look foolish.....

 

[crazydoc]

I think 99% of the elitism that exists among pro's is about penis extensions.
Bob

ROFLMAO

...If it can mean 100 different things, then, to me at least, it means nothing.

Hmm, that's my problem with the concept of god too.