drum overhead and condenser questions

[ignastyo]

My band is going to record a demo very soon, and we need 2 drum overhead mics. We are looking to spend about $100-150 each, maybe a little more if we can get something a lot better for a few extra dollars (or a little less if we can still get something good) Any suggestions? I am also wondering, I have seen some condensers for like $60 or $70, but are any of them really any good? Would they be better than a dynamic mic in the same price range like the SM-57? I have also noticed that small diaphragm mics seem to be described more as "instrument mics" and large diaphragm mics as "vocal mics". Is it a bad idea to use large diaphragm mics for drum overheads? Or small ones for vocals? Their primary function will be recording drums, but it would be nice if they can be used for other purposes as well. One more question. I noticed that some mics are sold in "matched pairs". Is that different than just buying any 2 of the same model mic? Well i'm out of questions for now, thanks in advance for your help.

 

[maskedman72]

try the octavia mc012's or a lot of people like the marshall 603's. a matched pair of mics would be better but they come at a higher price. you can use any mic for pretty much anything you want. some mics may be better suited to things than other it just depends on what you are going for. but you did say you were looking for oh mics. some of the condensors in the $70 price renge are good enough to get the job done for oh's. i use the mc012's and they are not matched and they work great.
go to octavias web site.
www.octavia.com
do some searches here on the mics you are interested in as well.
and for overhead micing a condensor would be better than your 57. it is not a bad idea to use a ldc fo oh micing either. i do it all the time with at 4033's and they sound very good.
good luck!

 

[Light]

I will second the Oktava mc012. They are remarkably cost effective mics. A lot of mic for the price. You could spend a little more and get some Shure SM81s, which for years where the standard for lower cost condensers, and you would be less happy with them.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[Tukkis]

Behringer ECM8000

or

Marshall MXL 603s

 

[wx3]

I have a pair of Marshall MXL 603's and for only $150 with two cables the value really can't be beat.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I have also noticed that small diaphragm mics seem to be described more as "instrument mics" and large diaphragm mics as "vocal mics". Is it a bad idea to use large diaphragm mics for drum overheads? Or small ones for vocals? Their primary function will be recording drums, but it would be nice if they can be used for other purposes as well. One more question. I noticed that some mics are sold in "matched pairs". Is that different than just buying any 2 of the same model mic?

Unless a large diaphragm mic is really well designed (read "expensive"), the off axis response tends to be more uneven than a small diaphragm mic. Small diaphragm mics also tend to be flatter in response than large diaphragm mics. That's why they're used more for instruments rather than vocals.

Large diaphragm mics tend to color the sound in a way that can be very rich sounding for vocals, so they've become popular for vocals.

You can use small diaphragm mics for vocals, but you won't get the flattering colorations that larger diaphragm mics provide.

You can use large diaphragm mics to record instruments, but you won't get as accurate a picture of the instrument as you would with a small diaphragm mic.

In the budget class (read "bottom-feeder") of small diaphragm mics, you probably find that the MXL 603 ($75), Oktava MC012 ($99), MXL 990 ($69), or the Behringer ECM8000 ($35) will all do a good job on recording drums as overhead mics.

Matched mics are selected for very similar sonic characteristics so the stereo image doesn't wander at different frequencies. Imagine playing a run on a guitar while recording with a left and right microphone, but each mic has a bump in the response at different notes.

When the guitar hits a note where a bump is, the sound will get louder in that one channel, making it appear that the guitar player moved to one side when playing that note.

So, matched mics are desirable for maintaining a good stereo image when recording instruments. It's a good idea for overhead mics to be matched, but it's not usually essential (meaning, who cares? It's just drums).

 

[dronestudios]

Re: Re: drum overhead and condenser questions

In the budget class (read "bottom-feeder") of small diaphragm mics, you probably find that the MXL 603 ($75), Oktava MC012 ($99), MXL 990 ($69), or the Behringer ECM8000 ($35) will all do a good job on recording drums as overhead mics.

Harvey, thanks for your wonderful advice! I just got through reading your discussion on Microphone Theory Part I and am just amazed. Will there be a Part II?

Back to the current discussion: Harvey you mentioned the MXL 990 was a small diaphragm condenser. It looks a lot like the Neumann TLM103 which is a large diaphragm condenser (1"). I remember reading in the Part I discussion the breakdown goes like this:

small condenser (1/2" and smaller)
medium condenser (5/8" to 7/8")
large condenser (1" and larger)

I guess a microphone with a smaller diaphragm can still be housed in a bigger casing. Am I right in stating this? Also what is the micron measurement? Does a large condenser have a higher micron rating? Also would you consider the CAD GXL1200 ($59) as a good economic small condenser?

Your thoughts are always enlightening. We are so lucky to have you post here.

 

[Flames]

I've thought about buying two SP B3 to use as overhead, but reading that you may not get "as accurate picture of the instrument as with SDC mics", got me thinking, would SDC mics reproduce the low end of the toms?
I've allways thought that a mic with a large diaphragm would reproduce the low end better than a mic with a small diaphragm, can someone comment this.
I'm only using 4 tracks when recording drums, and I do not like the hassle with extra tom mics and to balance them together with the overheads.
Mainly, I use 4 tracks for drums because I'm recording to a Tascam 38 (with a 8 track limit), and I do not have those extra mics for this application anyway.

 

[maskedman72]

flames, i often experiment with ldc's for overheads. i use 4 tracks for the kit.
1 kick
2 snare
3 oh
4 oh
i use at 4033's for oh rather than sdc's to get a better picture of the toms like you were saying. to my ear they do a good job at that. i just play with placement and position until the balance is good. when i am using tom mics i use sdc's.
-jay

 

[cominginsecond]

If you have a decent room, I would recommend an omni for overheads. They are a lot more forgiving as far as placement, and I have gotten the best results of my short recording "career" using omnis (the EMC8000s). Using the Behringers makes me ache for a real nice very small diapragm condensor, but, alas, it will be years before I'll be able to afford any new mics, let alone Earthworks.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

Re: Re: Re: drum overhead and condenser questions

I remember reading in the Part I discussion the breakdown goes like this:

small condenser (1/2" and smaller)
medium condenser (5/8" to 7/8")
large condenser (1" and larger)

I guess a microphone with a smaller diaphragm can still be housed in a bigger casing. Am I right in stating this?

Yup, the MXL 990 uses the same capsule as their MXL603. It's just in a bigger housing.

Also what is the micron measurement? Does a large condenser have a higher micron rating? Also would you consider the CAD GXL1200 ($59) as a good economic small condenser?

Microns are a unit of measurement and indicate the thickness of the diaphragm. 6 microns (which is pretty typical) is less than 1/3 the thickness of a human hair. By itself, it doesn't mean all that much. Thinner diaphragms are lighter and can be more responsive, but if it's not a good design, having a thinner diaphragm won't help much.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

I've allways thought that a mic with a large diaphragm would reproduce the low end better than a mic with a small diaphragm, can someone comment this.

The smaller diaphragm mics usually have the advantage when it comes to reproducing low end.

 

[Harvey Gerst]

i use at 4033's for oh rather than sdc's to get a better picture of the toms like you were saying. to my ear they do a good job at that. i just play with placement and position until the balance is good. when i am using tom mics i use sdc's.
-jay

Uh, Jay....

I don't know how to break this to you, but the 4033 IS a small diaphragm microphone. 5/8" to be exact.

 

[6gun]

at4041's can be had on 'the bay' for 150.00 new. these sell for 300.00 from musicians buddy and sound very sweet.

 

[int]

Yip. I've got a pair of 4041 s over my drumset right now.

 

[ignastyo]

well, it looks like the mc012 or mxl 603/990 is the way to go, so I will probably check one of those out. I now understand everything I was asking about so thanks for your help everyone

 

[Light]

You are welcome.

Light

"Cowards can never be moral."
M.K. Gandhi

 

[postalblue]

ignastyo,

i have a pair of mxl 603s and a pair of behringer ecm8000s, and i must say that i like the ecm8000s a lot better as overheads than the 603s. now that i have that option, i can use the 603s on the hihat and under the snare.

 

[cominginsecond]

ignastyo,

i have a pair of mxl 603s and a pair of behringer ecm8000s, and i must say that i like the ecm8000s a lot better as overheads than the 603s. now that i have that option, i can use the 603s on the hihat and under the snare.

Ditto that. The 8000s are much better in my experience.

 

[geekgurl]

cominginsecond and postal:

That's interesting, that you like the Behringer omnis better than the MXLs. Can you guys elaborate on the dimensions and "liveness" of the rooms you're using to record drums? What kind of music are each of you recording?

Thanks

gg