TerraMortim
New member
Sodomy is considered a crime in some places. . .
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Sodomy is considered a crime in some places. . .
mwthompson
Croisaandwich
So, stealing should be legal then?
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Emusic
New member
If it wasn´t for the manuals I wouldn´t know either. Pirated versions didn´t learned me much though; the time back when I was using them.
The only copy I have today is a sample library, and just today I ordered a version of it from SW. It was too darn good not to get into regular use.
And the tumb rule here is; if I use it - I own it legally. There is no other way to run a serious business.
DaveO
New member
The only reason people use pirated or cracked software is that it is done virtually undetected. Any other argument is a completely worthless attempt at covering the fact that they're cowards who do it because they know they won't get caught. If there was a higher chance of getting caught, found guilty, and being imprisoned then NONE of their other so-called "arguments" advocating the act would hold water. If there was any validity to any of those arguments they'd also steal their guitars, keyboards, computers, mics, drum sets, etc.
It's easy to do, you know you won't get caught, so you it. Fine. At least show some balls and admit that's the real reason you do it. Don't insult anyone's intelligence with stupid, poorly thought out rationales about how fat cat companies laugh when they rip off poor people with high prices that are knowingly too high, how greedy programmers get paid too much, how illegal copies actually IMPROVE sales, how software only costs 30 cents to make because all the manufacturer has to do is dump some files on a CD, how a demo copy is useless because some capabilities of the licensed version are intentionally, how it's OK as long as you aren't making money from it, or any of your other nonsense.
Want to get someone to pay attention to your arguments? Show some balls and walk into a Guitar Center, take a Gibson Les Paul off the wall, and as you're walking out the door with it, flip off the security camera and tell those greedy, black-souled corporate executive bastards that their prices are too high and since you're too poor to pay their exorbitant prices you're entitled to just take it instead of earning the money to pay for it. Maybe THEN your weak arguments will have a little more validity.
It's easy to do, you know you won't get caught, so you it. Fine. At least show some balls and admit that's the real reason you do it. Don't insult anyone's intelligence with stupid, poorly thought out rationales about how fat cat companies laugh when they rip off poor people with high prices that are knowingly too high, how greedy programmers get paid too much, how illegal copies actually IMPROVE sales, how software only costs 30 cents to make because all the manufacturer has to do is dump some files on a CD, how a demo copy is useless because some capabilities of the licensed version are intentionally, how it's OK as long as you aren't making money from it, or any of your other nonsense.
Want to get someone to pay attention to your arguments? Show some balls and walk into a Guitar Center, take a Gibson Les Paul off the wall, and as you're walking out the door with it, flip off the security camera and tell those greedy, black-souled corporate executive bastards that their prices are too high and since you're too poor to pay their exorbitant prices you're entitled to just take it instead of earning the money to pay for it. Maybe THEN your weak arguments will have a little more validity.
TerraMortim
New member
hahahahahahaha
CoolCat
Well-known member
interesting, maybe this is where its all going...like Windows wanting that annoying "verification"...or the trial period fro softwares?
they could have the software go dead after so long....a constant new code required to be entered?
how can they stop the free stuff and the China bootlegging?
mind boggling
they could have the software go dead after so long....a constant new code required to be entered?
how can they stop the free stuff and the China bootlegging?
mind boggling
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danny.guitar
Guest
When everyone has broadband internet connections, piracy will be a thing of the past.
TerraMortim
New member
why is calling someone a coward so misused.. lol The thing is, which has been said over and over in this thread, is that there is a huge difference between a physical object, which has actual monetary value, as it has physical parts, materials, and manufacturing involved for each individual unit...then, after the product has been manufactured, it's sold at a wholesale value to the store selling it to the public, which is another actual cost involved.
The only real costs involved in developing a piece of software is just that, developing the master copy...marketing, and a small cost to manufacture the physical copy if it is available in hard copy (manuals, dvds/cds/ registration cards, box, shrink wrap). So, any of their perceived losses are impossible to gauge because they are only projected income, because of the nature of digital information. There is one fixed production cost, regardless of how many copies exist of the product, especially since these days most software follows a pay by credit card/download soft and pdf manual model, so in that case there is not much overhead, other than the initial development cost,, then just maintaining the site, and advertising.
There are many reasons why this comparison doesn't actually work (even though it's the most overused answer...look back, it's literally the first thing every single person says when trying to prove their point against. For one, there is no way to perfectly replicate the act of pirating software with this scenario... in a sense, you'd have to have the ability to clone the gear (leaving the original intact) and taking home the clone, which actually wouldn't be an enforceable crime, as long as you weren't selling it to people, or not at all if it's not infringing on any patents (i.e. all of the strat copies that exist, or u47 clones etc..)
It also doesn't work to compare, because if you take a physical object, you are taking something which had cost the company actual money to produce that actual object.. the materials, the machines or people that put it together, testing/quality control...and then the store is losing money because they actually bought the gear at a lower price..the only way to replicate that in reality, where if software developers literally completely recompiled every single copy that existed physically, or literally re-wrote the code, or had some sort of industrial robot poking away at a keyboard writing code on every single disc before it's burned, or every copy before it's zipped. (that would do wonders with waiting for software to come out, eh? haha)
Digital information by nature is different than a physical object in many ways. Digital information is just ...information. A set of instructions for your computer to cary out a task. The act of "pirating" digital information is literally just making a digital copy of it, not actually swiping any sort of original object, which won't exist any more to whomever it was taken from. I have been stolen from many times, my car has been stolen, house robbed many times, etc... I've had a nice dSLR camera with all the lenses ripped off..and let me tell you, you really understand the different between these two things when you've actually been a victim of real theft. my dSLR camera will never return, I'll be forced to take half assed photographs or pay photographers money every time I need a photo of something, until I can afford to buy a replacement... There is a world of difference between someone putting up one of my albums on bit torrent for people to download without my permission, and stealing my car... what do you think will actually hurt me in a great way... The people who want to buy physical copies of my music will, and do...and people who can't afford it, can enjoy it anyway... I neither promote or condemn piracy of my own works, because it's simply a staple of the time we live. Is there loss of income? hmmm... maybe a tiny bit, but probably not that much.
Now to further disprove your connections on your last point. with physical gear.... guess what, 9 times out of 10 I don't pay the inflated prices for that gear, which is set at a price that they know people will be forced to play, rather than a fair cost in proportion to what it costs to manufacture, ship, market, and the like (they charge it, because they know you'll pay it) I buy used almost every bit of gear I own..and I always pay a very fair price, and you know, people take care of their gear better than their own children or senile parents..it's always in about the same condition I'd get it new (sometimes with a few scratches in the finish, or having to replace a tube... but really perfectly operational) So is this wrong? that's projected income on their part...I had a need for that gear, so I should be buying it from them so they can profit. If I buy used gear from an ad in the paper, they don't see a penny from it, and never will. That's more of a closely comparable practice to piracy than taking a les paul off of a retail store's wall. In effect it's the same exact "loss" that they're always on about... maybe they should start suing anyone who sells their gear after purchasing it.
Then, what of these folks particularly gifted in electronics who find schematics of high end gear, only to make it themselves at the actual cost that it takes to make this lofty stuff? We should throw them in jail and melt down the key and shoot it into the sun...that's what we should do.
as I said....shades of grey...absolutes are really popular in our modern western society, but they are dangerous to base our worlds around, instead of finding a healthy mental/moral/social balance rather than the nutty extremist minds running around today.
mwthompson
Croisaandwich
If it's valuable enough to pirate, then it has value. It's just more difficult to be compensated for digital creations, which DO cost money to make, regardless of how cheap it is to distribute. This is just a case where someone says "fuck you, and all your development work" and just takes what they want because it's easy. People wanting to be compensated for their work is not "extremism." And anyone condoning software/music/whatever piracy isn't standing on any moral high ground.
Just excuses for cheapskates.
There are lots of software options that are very cheap or even free to use now. If you need to use commercial software for whatever reason, then you should license it properly.
But, it's going to happen regardless because people have no conscience.
mwthompson
Croisaandwich
Patent laws already give you the right to build one of anything you want, if you're capable, as long as you don't try to resell it. (IIRC)
Not the same as copying software.
Now, if you wrote your own version, then sure.
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leaversday
New member
Do I buy it?
Yea, I do...
But that's just me
Yea, I do...
But that's just me
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talontsiawd
New member
To everyone saying that it's not like stealing something physical. Honesly, would you not buy a single peice of software you bought for free. Or a single album you downloaded. I think you would be lying if you said you said yes.
As for the "money shouldn't inhibit my creativity" bullshit...I know more than a few starving artists that sacrifice alot to buy canvases and paint, etc. It's part of life.
I really don't care if people do it until the price of software actually goes up. But don't make up some bullshit to justify it.
As for the "money shouldn't inhibit my creativity" bullshit...I know more than a few starving artists that sacrifice alot to buy canvases and paint, etc. It's part of life.
I really don't care if people do it until the price of software actually goes up. But don't make up some bullshit to justify it.
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wreckd504
New member
terra, you are a masochist =p every that can be said about this topic has been covered from every angle conceivable!
DaveO
New member
TerraMorten,
Before I continue this lunacy, let me give you my professional background. I have 22 years in the IT field, with a B.S. in Computer Science and and M.S. in Computer Systems Management.
The first 10 years were in software engineering and the last 12 have been in data center management. I have dealt with identifying the fixed costs of developing software, projecting sales volume at given prices, and developing a marketing plan based on a given number of units sold at a given price. I have also dealt with managing a large enterprise-class data center. Those costs include finding, developing, training, and retaining a *highly* skilled technical staff. They include the need to budget for replacing large amounts of equipment every year while incurring no down time and no interruption in service and while management decides to reallocate your funding to pet projects. They include integrating new technologies while maintaining a smooth and invisible transition from legacy systems. And they include doing all this with a shrinking IT budget because higher management wants all the benefits of world class data center yet refuses to provide the funding to make it happen.
Do you really want to debate the gaping holes in your logic with me? Have you any experience running a department or a business? Have you ever had to manage costs while finding ways to get more out of every resource you have control over (human and equipment)? Have you ever had to struggle with how to retain talent you need to do your job while the people who make that your job objective take away resources you need to do it? Have you ever had to fight for every penny in order to ensure that your staff - people with families, homes, mortgages, bills of their own - don't have to worry whether or not there's funding to keep them employed for the long term?
My guess is that you have no real world experience in a software or IT environment to back up anything you have said. If you do have some experience, my guess is that it's not recent because there's no way you could have survived in the business with such ill-conceived ideas of the costs that go into producing commercial software and how to market a product that will keep you in business for the long term.
So before I continue, please, enlighten me. On what vast well of experience are you basing YOUR arguments?
Before I continue this lunacy, let me give you my professional background. I have 22 years in the IT field, with a B.S. in Computer Science and and M.S. in Computer Systems Management.
The first 10 years were in software engineering and the last 12 have been in data center management. I have dealt with identifying the fixed costs of developing software, projecting sales volume at given prices, and developing a marketing plan based on a given number of units sold at a given price. I have also dealt with managing a large enterprise-class data center. Those costs include finding, developing, training, and retaining a *highly* skilled technical staff. They include the need to budget for replacing large amounts of equipment every year while incurring no down time and no interruption in service and while management decides to reallocate your funding to pet projects. They include integrating new technologies while maintaining a smooth and invisible transition from legacy systems. And they include doing all this with a shrinking IT budget because higher management wants all the benefits of world class data center yet refuses to provide the funding to make it happen.
Do you really want to debate the gaping holes in your logic with me? Have you any experience running a department or a business? Have you ever had to manage costs while finding ways to get more out of every resource you have control over (human and equipment)? Have you ever had to struggle with how to retain talent you need to do your job while the people who make that your job objective take away resources you need to do it? Have you ever had to fight for every penny in order to ensure that your staff - people with families, homes, mortgages, bills of their own - don't have to worry whether or not there's funding to keep them employed for the long term?
My guess is that you have no real world experience in a software or IT environment to back up anything you have said. If you do have some experience, my guess is that it's not recent because there's no way you could have survived in the business with such ill-conceived ideas of the costs that go into producing commercial software and how to market a product that will keep you in business for the long term.
So before I continue, please, enlighten me. On what vast well of experience are you basing YOUR arguments?
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leaversday
New member
Damn DaveO, well put. I also have about 7 years in the IT field (much less than you I might add) as a developer with a 4 year BS in Computer Science. I completely feel that the unchecked internet has ruined the music industry. I can remember when the only way to buy a song was to spend $14.00 on the entire CD and that's how musicians profited. It's not my business to hound others but I think it's gotten out of hand. Most people know what's right and wrong. The rest is just for debate...
TerraMortim
New member
you could be closer to the truth than you think... *grin*
dgatwood
is out. Leave a message.
To be fair, they brought it on themselves. By the time Napster came out, it had been obvious for years that people wanted a way to get music online. When Napster came out, though, it was blindingly obvious. Yet the music industry didn't get their act together for selling music online until the iTunes store came out in 2003---five years later.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating piracy here, but there's a reality that folks are missing: if you don't give the customers what they want, they are going to find what they want elsewhere. If they can provide it themselves, they will.
This applies to the computer industry, too. Prices on lots of high-end software are way too high for hobbyists, and the low-end versions are way too watered down to be useful.
A prime example of this is Photoshop. The only reason I own it is because I could get it at the academic price a few years back. Otherwise, I'd probably be stuck using GIMP and swearing at it on the rare occasions I need to use it. Right now, I'm facing an upgrade that costs as much as I think the entire piece of software should cost, and the only reason I'm upgrading is that an OS upgrade is going to force the issue. Otherwise, there's no real benefit to blowing that $250 because I don't care about any of the new features and don't use it often enough to justify such an expense.
I would kill for somebody to write a Photoshop killer---something as powerful as Photoshop, but half the price. Force Adobe to compete on quality instead of resting on their laurels, offshoring a lot of their programming staff to India, tweaking their software slightly, and charging hundreds of dollars for the privilege of getting bug fixes.
In the meantime, though, I'm not at all surprised that hobbyists pirate it. Elements is too watered down and GIMP sucks, so there's nothing remotely good that is afforable and meets the needs of the prosumer market, and Adobe has only themselves to blame for that, IMHO.
ecktronic
Mixing and Mastering.
mwthompson
Croisaandwich
Adobe has only themselves to blame for making the best product? I don't see that as justification for not wanting to pay their price. If anything, it only justifies Adobe's price.
And the masses were not providing music for themselves in response to the music industry's lack of vision regarding online sales, they were stealing other people's music and sharing it online. Would be different if an entire new industry in independent music surfaced in retaliation, but instead it was just a free for all with someone else's product. The typical consumer is WAY too shallow to fight an issue on the moral high ground, everyone just wanted free music. Even if the music industry had jumped on the bandwagon right from the get-go the typical consumer would still want it free.
This goes back to the "she was askin' for it" argument. Adobe shouldn't have worn that short skirt, and the music industry shouldn't drink so much and flirt, I guess.
TerraMortim
New member
everyone should pirate everything. I want to plunder...I want to kill...ransack the villages, rape the cattle and stampede the women... I want to go into a music store and smash everything with a sledge hammer, then shoot the owner in the face, because it's fun. I think I'll burn down the offices of Native Instruments, and then piss on the ashes...I'll poop on the front lawns of the folks at Adobe and edit their faces onto the feces with a pirated version of photoshop and nail it to their front doors. I'll throw everyone that works at sony bmg into the ocean, one by one, and watch them getting eaten by sharks and giant squid while I listen to downloaded mp3s on my ipod, and downloading movies via bit torrent on my PDA. I'll do it...then I'll come for all of you....and your little doggies too! BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
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