Do you really buy that expensive recording software?

[wreckd504]

Originally posted by toker41
Certainly isn't stopping anybody from using illegal software

I've used illegal software in the past. Since reading peoples opinions and speaking to other industry folk about it over the last few years, i've changed my opinion. You may not change everyone, but you might get through to a few people.

What is your agenda and what is the point of your post?

Originally posted by toker41
So why do you people come here to bash these people?... To feel better about yourselves by pointing out others wrongs? Why do you care what others do, when it has nothing to do with you?

Kettle black?

 

[danny.guitar]

That goes back to the fact that there is no real effort put into anti-piracy because it is not a real problem in the bottom line.

You have that wrong. Any software company could come up with an "unbreakable" anti-piracy system. But that would be extremely inconvenient to loyal customers and just isn't practical for recording software.

Some online games have pretty hard-to-beat anti-piracy systems because the games are internet-based. Doing similar systems for recording software would require people to connect to the internet everytime they use it. You know how many people have a separate computer just for recording that doesn't even go online?

XP has great anti-piracy technology, showing that it can be done, but simply isn't. Gotta ask "why?".

What are you talking about? XP has been pirated a million times over.

The "authenticity verification" thing they have is a joke!

 

[Toker41]

I've used illegal software in the past. Since reading peoples opinions and speaking to other industry folk about it over the last few years, i've changed my opinion. You may not change everyone, but you might get through to a few people.

What is your agenda and what is the point of your post?



Kettle black?

I come here because I happened upon this thread some 3 years ago, and stored it in my favs. I come here to relieve stress, and engage in debate that doesn't mean crap. It's an escape. A once in a while break from day to day life. Fact is, nobody here has an opinion that means jack. Guess, I come here because I don't care. Where some people come here because you can live any lie you want under an SC persona, I come here to be more honest than I find I can be in day to day life.

Pots not black.

 

[wreckd504]

The xp piracy thing (WGA i think its called) is pretty efficient if your pc is on the net all the time. But for pc's that aren't on the net, theres no way to catch them. Eventually some code monkey will crack whatever protection they use.

lol toker, fair comment.

 

[Toker41]

You have that wrong. Any software company could come up with an "unbreakable" anti-piracy system. But that would be extremely inconvenient to loyal customers and just isn't practical for recording software.

Some online games have pretty hard-to-beat anti-piracy systems because the games are internet-based. Doing similar systems for recording software would require people to connect to the internet everytime they use it. You know how many people have a separate computer just for recording that doesn't even go online?



What are you talking about? XP has been pirated a million times over.

The "authenticity verification" thing they have is a joke!

yeah, I'm familiar with some of that pirated XP stuff. Pain in the ass, and eventually can't be updated (and XP NEEDS it's updates). I don't know anybody that ever used pirated XP, that didn't eventually end up buying it, because it became to much of a pain in the ass. It works, and any software you buy, you are going to go online and update eventually, not to mention look for any necessary patches, and what not, so you would NOT have to go online every time you use it. There are other methods I've seen used CDs that I've yet to seen cracked, but it's just not widely used. Face it, there simply is not that much of an effort put into anti-piracy on the part of manufacturers (distributors). I've yet to see a well argued counter-point on that matter in this thread.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Face it, there simply is not that much of an effort put into anti-piracy on the part of manufacturers (distributors). I've yet to see a well argued counter-point on that matter in this thread.

Post #1399 has a response from someone who's been on the front lines, a response to your honest questions that you asked for, and a couple of honest questions in return for you.

G.

 

[danny.guitar]

yeah, I'm familiar with some of that pirated XP stuff. Pain in the ass, and eventually can't be updated (and XP NEEDS it's updates). I don't know anybody that ever used pirated XP, that didn't eventually end up buying it, because it became to much of a pain in the ass. It works, and any software you buy, you are going to go online and update eventually, not to mention look for any necessary patches, and what not, so you would NOT have to go online every time you use it. There are other methods I've seen used CDs that I've yet to seen cracked, but it's just not widely used. Face it, there simply is not that much of an effort put into anti-piracy on the part of manufacturers (distributors). I've yet to see a well argued counter-point on that matter in this thread.

You ever developed software before?

Because I have. A lot of it. And I'm pretty sure Glenn has too.

So until you do, don't say anything about how hard it is, or isn't to do to put anti-piracy into software.

While I don't do software as much as I used to, I still frequent some message boards for software development. The #1 question asked on most forums is about how to implement anti-piracy.

Oh yeah...

There are other methods I've seen used CDs that I've yet to seen cracked, but it's just not widely used.

And what CDs were those? Any kind of CD-based scheme has been cracked long ago.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

You ever developed software before?

Because I have. A lot of it. And I'm pretty sure Glenn has too.

Yep. I've worked in postions from software developer to software project architect and project manager. Including working on a team that developed multitrack A/V editing software a la Vegas or Avid - in fact at least one of the guys I worked with on that project now works on the Vegas team over at Sony.

Been there, done that, wrote the book; and yeah, Danny your analysis and description is 100% correct. The more secure the software, the harder it is for the end user to use. And the best reasonably usable stuff for stand-alone software is crackable with enough Mountain Dew and Peanut M&Ms Why pay for protection that doesn't protect? That's the attitude taken by most software companies. It's not that they don't care about piracy, it's that they can't affordably do a whole lot about it.

G.

 

[NYMorningstar]

the

In 2000, consumers bought 785.1 million albums, last year they bought 588.3 million albums.

In 2000, the top ten selling albums in the US sold a combined 60 million copies. In 2006 they sold only 25 million.

More than 5000 record company employees have been laid off since 2000. The number of major label companies dropped from 5 to 4.

About 2700 record stores have closed across the country since 2003.

Now the major labels are insisting on deals for many artists that include the companies getting a portion of touring, merchandising, product sponsorship and other non-recorded-music sources.

Among the biggest reasons for this is the online piracy issue.

If you don't think this effects you then you are either a nobody or a moron.

 

[dkerwood]

In 2000, consumers bought 785.1 million albums, last year they bought 588.3 million albums.

In 2000, the top ten selling albums in the US sold a combined 60 million copies. In 2006 they sold only 25 million.

More than 5000 record company employees have been laid off since 2000. The number of major label companies dropped from 5 to 4.

About 2700 record stores have closed across the country since 2003.

Now the major labels are insisting on deals for many artists that include the companies getting a portion of touring, merchandising, product sponsorship and other non-recorded-music sources.

Among the biggest reasons for this is the online piracy issue.

If you don't think this effects you then you are either a nobody or a moron.

Just to play devil's advocate here...

Music piracy and software piracy are slightly different. When I download music, it's usually music that I want to listen to. I'm talking music where I would otherwise buy the album. Granted, sometimes I'm asked to learn a song that I really couldn't care less about and don't want to spend money to buy said song, let ALONE an album full of songs like it... and then I'm thankful for my Limewire. But for the most part, I'm reminded of a band I like, so I set up about a dozen or two downloads, and walk away. When I come back, POOF! Instant album. Unfortunately, it's pulling money directly out of the record industry. I really should move to iTunes one of these days.

BUT... isn't the mantra of all pirates, "I wouldn't have bought this software anyway?" I'd guess for the most part, this is true. The "something for nothing" crowd would just sit around and use the freeware available on the whole. Thus, there's less DIRECT profit loss.

Now, the flip side of the coin. I remember a few years ago (ok, more than a few) I bought the Sugar Ray album, based off of the two singles released from it. I dug the acoustic rock sound, and wanted more. Come to find out that the rest of the disk was a louder rock sound - completely different than the two singles. I was pissed, but the money had been spent. I felt tricked and somewhat betrayed. Today? I'd download a few more songs, and if I liked the majority of them, I'd buy the disk.

Same deal with software. Back in the day, you'd shell out a ton of money to record. When I started, I was in middle school. I had to shell out 50 bucks of my hard earned lawn mowing money (a month or more of pay) to buy a piece of MIDI sequencing software. The software was TERRIBLE, but I was out my 50 bucks, so I had to live with it. I learned a bunch of go-arounds, but I was never really happy.

Today, if a program doesn't have a trial period, I'll download a cracked version before I buy. No sense in dropping $100 on a PLUG IN if it doesn't sound good! If it has a trial, no sense in messing with a crack. I'll play with the trial and decide if it's worth buying. I can't tell you how many Flash editors I've gone through using trials and cracked versions to weed through... Still couldn't find one that I liked enough, so I bailed on the idea of using Flash on my website.

You want to know how to beat pirates? A few days before your software hits the shelves, put a "cracked" version on the file sharing networks yourself. Make this version disabled, though - like a demo. By the time people find out, it'll be too late. Some will crack the real deal, but it'll become nearly impossible to distinguish the disabled version from the real version, and people will be forced to wade through installation after installation or just buy the thing.

Sorry. I broke my lurking rule.

 

[willowhaus]

cars vs. an idea. I don't think I need to explain that to you.

You are free to take any idea you wish & code your own software, you know. You're not paying for simply an idea.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

isn't the mantra of all pirates, "I wouldn't have bought this software anyway?" I'd guess for the most part, this is true.

What they just don't seem to understand, though, is that is ultimately irrelevant. The relevant fact is that it's not their decision to make. Period.

Today, if a program doesn't have a trial period, I'll download a cracked version before I buy.

Name the last three titles of cracked, fully-functional software where you actually were altruistic enough to throw out the cracked version and replace it with the full-priced retail version after testing it.

You want to know how to beat pirates? A few days before your software hits the shelves, put a "cracked" version on the file sharing networks yourself. Make this version disabled, though - like a demo. By the time people find out, it'll be too late. Some will crack the real deal, but it'll become nearly impossible to distinguish the disabled version from the real version

A simple checksum on the file will distinguish them in a split second.

There is no good way to totally or quickly beat priacy. The best that can be done is to not let the idea that piracy is actually acceptable social behavior spread any further than it already has. It will take a generation at least. Only if/when todays adolescent crackers and hackers grow up and have kids that they can actually teach the proper values to all over again - thngs like the value of a product is not intrinsic, but is based upon how much one has to sacrifice to attain it - will piracy actually become uncool and become the realm strictly of professional criminals.

G.

 

[Robert D]

There is no good way to totally or quickly beat priacy. The best that can be done is to not let the idea that piracy is actually acceptable social behavior spread any further than it already has. It will take a generation at least. Only if/when todays adolescent crackers and hackers grow up and have kids that they can actually teach the proper values to all over again - thngs like the value of a product is not intrinsic, but is based upon how much one has to sacrifice to attain it - will piracy actually become uncool and become the realm strictly of professional criminals.

G.

Toker - Read this and understand. This is what those of us who are, to quote you, "making moral judgements", are trying to do. We're not here to claim some moral high ground and shake our fingers in pompus rightousness at the "sinners". We're just trying to spread the truth, and nudge the wheel of the Titanic, knowing how slowly the behemouth will answer the helm.

 

[dkerwood]

The relevant fact is that it's not their decision to make. Period.

Moral relativism, man. You say it's not their decision, they say it is.

Name the last three titles of cracked, fully-functional software where you actually were altruistic enough to throw out the cracked version and replace it with the full-priced retail version after testing it.

Ooo, fun! I like games like this. Okay. I just bought my copy of Adobe Audition (that one was bad - I had it on my computer for over a year), MS Office, The Sims 2 (and one of the expansion packs)... I'm working on finding a legal copy of the Photoshop version that I have; I didn't care for the newer version. It's tough to find out-of-date software, even if it is superior to the original.

I will admit that I still have a sequencing program that I haven't bought yet (still trying to decide if it's worth $500 to me), and I have 2 or 3 mastering softwares sitting on my hard drive that haven't been fully tested and compared yet. BUT compare that with the dozen or so fully functional programs I've downloaded, hated, and uninstalled. No harm, no foul. Try taking a piece of software back to the computer store and telling them, "I just don't like the interface." Riiiiight.

A simple checksum on the file will distinguish them in a split second.

Your gibberish language won't work here, man!

<pause>

Ok, so Wikipedia tells me that your Checksum doohickey is some sophisticated way of checking redundancy. I like to consider myself fairly well versed in the computer arts for a layman, but I'd never even HEARD of that junk. I suspect that the average Limewire user hasn't either. So what if my method wouldn't stop the hardcore pirates? Nothing will stop those dudes, but the idea is to stop the bulk of it, which this would accomplish.

Just release two or three versions of "flawed" software, or software on a timer, and make sure that they're all different file sizes. That'd kill almost all the casual users. If every software company did this, software piracy would be cut in half.

There is no good way to totally or quickly beat priacy. The best that can be done is to not let the idea that piracy is actually acceptable social behavior spread any further than it already has. It will take a generation at least. Only if/when todays adolescent crackers and hackers grow up and have kids that they can actually teach the proper values to all over again - thngs like the value of a product is not intrinsic, but is based upon how much one has to sacrifice to attain it - will piracy actually become uncool and become the realm strictly of professional criminals.

Yeah, because the guys who steal software today will totally have a moment of epiphany and repent of their piratey sins. And then they would CERTAINLY teach their kids not to pirate software... sigh... Good thinkin'.

 

[danny.guitar]

Your gibberish language won't work here, man!

It's not gibberish.

<pause>

I like to consider myself fairly well versed in the computer arts for a layman, but I'd never even HEARD of that junk.

Then consider yourself pretty UN-versed in computers in general. Checksums are done everywhere. People who are indeed well versed in computers are very well aware of this.

md5, CRC, etc. Not stuff the average computer user knows, or even needs to know. But it's not jibberish. Oh, and it is indeed used in almost every anti-piracy scheme out there.

I suspect that the average Limewire user hasn't either. So what if my method wouldn't stop the hardcore pirates? Nothing will stop those dudes, but the idea is to stop the bulk of it, which this would accomplish.

The thing you're not seeing is that as soon as even one "hardcore software pirate" cracks a program, a million people have when he releases it to the public.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Moral relativism, man. You say it's not their decision, they say it is.

Nothing relative about it. It's an absolute. No one has the right to usurp or deny the rights of another. No one has the right to just say that they can take what they want without paying for it because it doesn't really hurt the seller; only the seller can decide that. No one has the right to justify a crime based upon the monetary effect - or lack thereof - of the execution of the crime. No one has the right to just decide for themselves what is OK and what is not OK without judging against the rule of law first.

Ok, so Wikipedia tells me that your Checksum doohickey is some sophisticated way of checking redundancy. I like to consider myself fairly well versed in the computer arts for a layman, but I'd never even HEARD of that junk. I suspect that the average Limewire user hasn't either. So what if my method wouldn't stop the hardcore pirates? Nothing will stop those dudes, but the idea is to stop the bulk of it, which this would accomplish.

Ah yes, The Internet: where everybody's an expert in subjects they know nothing about. If you don't know about checksums, you haven't evcen scratched the surface of IT knowledge yet. There is nothing sophisticated about checksumming; it is a very basic method, something that has been commonplace in the computer world for decades. I was using it back on my first BBS some 25 years ago, and even then it was IT 101 stuff.

All it takes to overcome your scheme is for a cracker to checksum his crack file and put the word out in a simple text message on Limewire what that checksum is. this process takes seconds to perform; there's plenty of free utilitiies out there for checksumming files. Then any server would display that checkum along with the file name (again, there's a ton of common server and web utilities for doing exactly that) on the download page. All the user needs to know is the right checksum, information which will spread like wildfire on the net along with the crack, and regardless of what everybody else does in the way of phony files will be useless, because none of them will have matching checkums because none of them will have identical content.

I have a good lay knowledge of building techniques, but I don't even pretend to try to tell structural engineers how to build a bridge. You should not do that with computer and software engineers either. You're just displaying your ignorance of the subject when you say such things.

Yeah, because the guys who steal software today will totally have a moment of epiphany and repent of their piratey sins. And then they would CERTAINLY teach their kids not to pirate software... sigh... Good thinkin'.

Just wait until you pass adolescence, son, and actually come closer to understanding the world for what it is and not how you think it is now. When I was 20 I sounded just like you guys. My coworkers used to call me the "youthful idealist". But I eventually grew up.

There are a million 17 yr old software crackers but very few 40 yr old software crackers. Not because the old men can't do it, not even because they can't get paid well for it. But because most of them have learned more, know better, and have a bigger sense of responsibility by then, on several different levels.

Some people never learn, they go on being ignorant or irresponsible their whole lives. There's nothing anybody can to for them or their poor offspring. Bit those that are on the fence now and still have more than two brain cells to rub together are salvagable. And many folks just like yourself will indeed mature from the wrecklessness of youthful idealism to a more responsible form of matured idealism where you actually start giving a shit about more than just yourself.

G.

 

[wreckd504]

http://www.theage.com.au/news/techn...rate-extradited/2007/05/06/1178390182639.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Technolo...Internet-piracy/2007/06/23/1182019396798.html


There are some 40 year old code monkeys left...well one less now.

Scary stuff.

 

[dkerwood]

Awww, Glen, don't tell me I struck a nerve, old man.

I'm just telling you that a good portion of your "hackers" and "pirates" in the world are people like me - don't know much about computers, and only take what's handed to them (although I have a step up on a lot of people - I know how to program in BASIC and DOS). All I know is that if the first long download from Limewire or Bittorrent doesn't work, I simply assume that they're all bad.

Do you honestly think that piracy is on the rise because more people know how to hack code? Come on, man. Piracy is on the rise because all I have to do is push DOWNLOAD and I have the program.

Thus, just take your silly "checksum" files, and create the same for your phony copies of the program. Only the real hackers know which is which, so your casual users are left in the dust.

Please, gramps, continue shooting down my ideas and offering only idealistic nonsense on your own. Or do you prefer living in your high tower, looking down on the rest of us?

 

[dkerwood]

Nothing relative about it. It's an absolute. No one has the right to usurp or deny the rights of another. No one has the right to just say that they can take what they want without paying for it because it doesn't really hurt the seller; only the seller can decide that. No one has the right to justify a crime based upon the monetary effect - or lack thereof - of the execution of the crime. No one has the right to just decide for themselves what is OK and what is not OK without judging against the rule of law first.

Again, you're assuming that "law" is the absolute authority on right and wrong. Man, by that logic, what happened on 9/11 was absolutely right. After all, they were operating on "law".

Many things that were "illegal" 100 years ago are perfectly fine today. Will you change your moral attitude if the law changes?

I'd also like to point out that I've never said it was OK to pirate software. I'm just arguing your right to proclaim it absolutely wrong.

 

[Toker41]

In 2000, consumers bought 785.1 million albums, last year they bought 588.3 million albums.

In 2000, the top ten selling albums in the US sold a combined 60 million copies. In 2006 they sold only 25 million.

More than 5000 record company employees have been laid off since 2000. The number of major label companies dropped from 5 to 4.

About 2700 record stores have closed across the country since 2003.

Now the major labels are insisting on deals for many artists that include the companies getting a portion of touring, merchandising, product sponsorship and other non-recorded-music sources.

Among the biggest reasons for this is the online piracy issue.

If you don't think this effects you then you are either a nobody or a moron.

Why you guys always have to start with name calling?

Now, in response:

It is imposable to prove that the decline in CD sales is due to online piracy. Simply can not be proven, or shown as fact in any way. All numbers related to loss of revenue due to music piracy is based on estimates, and guess. Period.
I can't help but to notice that your analysis doesn't include internet sales, and legal downloads (something most studies, and reports of such nature tend to overlook...gotta wonder why??), which have taken off as CD sales have declined. Just released this week that Apple is now the 3rd largest music distributor in the world, yet they do not deal with any physical CD's. Surely this boost in legal music downloads has an effect on CD sales.

Of course labels are starting to insist on part of the touring, and merchandise profit. That is where the money is. Has been going that way for years now. Give the music away for free, or I'm not paying $100 for the concert ticket, $50 for the T-shirt, and $40 for the program. Labels are the lowest form of life, and will take anything, and everything from an artist that they can get their grubby little hands on. That is nothing new. They now desire a piece of the touring, and merchandise, because they realize they are no longer needed.