Do you believe that there are rules to good melody writing?

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CyanJaguar

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I believe that there are rules and I find it ludicrous that some people dont believe that there are rules that dictate what a good melody is.

I'd like to see different points of view though, so I would like you all to kindly argue for or against the theory of rules.
 
I think there is a difference between "theory" and "rules"

Theory is an identification process. You can play ANY three or four keys together on a piano and there'll be a chord name for it.

rules on the other hand make the difference between a melody and just a string of notes.

For example:
augmented 4ths dont sound musical
melodies that go "up" sound better than ones that go "down"
A wildcard has to appear at least twice to be considered a wildcard.

The difference between a good melody writer and a bad one is that the good one uses the rules as a good foundation for his music .
 
The rules give you the tools......they are guidelines only....

break the paradigm when you rhymn... :D


I like the rules....especially concerning Harmony......

but as long as it sounds good....who cares?

plus...it is yours....no on elses's.....no one should be able to tell you which way is better than another.....unless you are marketing your stuff....then there are DEFINITE rules to follow....


ya know? :D
 
CyanJaguar said:
I believe that there are rules and I find it ludicrous that some people dont believe that there are rules that dictate what a good melody is.

I'd like to see different points of view though, so I would like you all to kindly argue for or against the theory of rules.
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no rules - either you can do it or you cant. and now I contradict myself by saying: if you are not that good at it you can improve.

If there were rules, then we could all write good melodies by following them.
 
Re: Re: Do you believe that there are rules to good melody writing?

Layla Nahar said:
no rules - either you can do it or you cant. and now I contradict myself by saying: if you are not that good at it you can improve.

If there were rules, then we could all write good melodies by following them.
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we CAN all write good melodies by following the rules.

The only problem is that I dont know of any comprehensive rule book in existence. MAny of the book have very good rules, but they dont have all.
 
I've wandered blissfully along not knowing there were rules!
Damn....now I gotta start over?


All jokes aside, rules are made to be broken. I think it would be boring to never "break out of the box".


Is this a thread where the rules are to be posted? If so, I'd love to see some of them. Honestly, I don't know any.


bd
 
I know the rules, but have been sworn to secrecy.
Sorry.
 
great topic

I think there definately are rules, and the rules are defined in the context of music theory. Know what I mean? The rules may vary slightly depending upon the musical style (classical vs. jazz vs. pop), but I think there are some general rules that are universal.

I agree that rules can be broken, but if you break the rules, the song may not sound very good or have much meaning.

I'll give a shot on trying to write a couple of them:

For example:

1) The melody leads the key that the song is in, while the harmony has to follow it.

2) The melody should return back to it's original starting key to give the feeling of resolve.

3) The melody should change it's key at least once or twice to provide depth to the song.


For me, the melody is the hardest thing to come up with. I can come up with the chords and accompaniment that form the basis of a song. Interestly enough, I find that the singers I know, even though they have no musical training, come up with great melodies for the accompaniment I write.
 
Re: great topic

Sydney said:
Interestly enough, I find that the singers I know, even though they have no musical training, come up with great melodies for the accompaniment I write.
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Hence my argument - either you have it or you dont. Look, if there really were *rules* about writing melodies it would be fairly easy to write a computer program to write melodies. (we can make computers play a mean game of chess, or cards) For sure, if we used your 'rules' we wouldn't have "Ma-riii-a, I just met a girl named Maria" (or "The Siiimpsons" Elfman cheated!)

You see my point? Melodies come from within and are a manifestation of the individual. Also I am being a semantic bastard. If by 'rules' you mean a set of *principles* that can be followed so that say, someone who writes an odd sounding melody can improve it, then ok, there are "rules" in as much as you are using "rules" where you should use principles.

Its just the same as writing lyrics. There are certain principles you can follow - if you write lame lyrics you can use these as a guide to write better ones, but they won't make you generate great poetry. Y'either have it or you don't
 
Of the three posted, I only have a few thoughts.
#1 is pretty much a given......how else could it be done?
#2 is not always the case...what happens when a song goes up a 3rd or a 5th at the end? This adds dramatic effect more so than returning to the original key IMHO.
I'm not sure about #3, changing keys within the main body of a song sounds confusing to me...maybe I misunderstand.

I still maintain that hard and fast rules take away from freedom of creativity.
I'm not sure we're talking strictly about music theory here.
Another question....Who wrote these rules anyway?



bd
 
bdbdbuck said:

#2 is not always the case...what happens when a song goes up a 3rd or a 5th at the end? This adds dramatic effect more so than returning to the original key IMHO.
bd
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an ending on the 3rd or the 5th is still within the same key. (by example, if you are in the key of A - you can come back to DO (the 'tonic') or A or you can end on C# (I believe the 3rd of a scale is can also play the same role as A - I think the 3rd is also called the 'supertonic' for that reason). One of the "official" cadences, or endings is (I think its called "Plagal") IV-V ending on the 5th.

YOu would be ending on a different key if you ended on lets say, C natural or Eb (a minor, or Ab major respectively)


I have a melody for the last two bars of the phrase it goes to a different key - yet it is quite catch and surprisingly satisfying - you don't get a "huh? where'd that come from??!!" feeling.
 
There are an infinite number of possible sets of rules. Only a couple of these sets are heard on popular music stations.

I find it much more interesting to invent a set of rules, then stick to them for one piece.
 
It REALLY depends on the genre. And the way in which the song is going to be used.

Pick your favorite five or ten songs from any genre. Sit down and analyze them - do notes tend to change by steps, or leaps? do they follow the chords, or go outside? Is the range wide, or narrow?

I write church music for that most non-singing bunch of churchgoers - Roman Catholics. I know my range better not be more than a 9th or a 10th, and the more I spend below a D or above a B, the fewer people will be singing. Probably about a 10% loss for each note outside the range. My motion needs to be stepwise, though an occasional 3rd or 5th is okay. I need to be diatonic***, and repeat ideas a lot, so they're not trying to sing 6 or 8 completely different musical phrases. And SOMEHOW, I have to keep it musical, and interesting, though there's a lot of published music for congregations that is neither.

OTOH, if I were writing a bebop melody, or a fusion melody, or a post-classical period symphonic melody, I would be breaking all these rules.

For my birthday (2 days ago), my wife bought me a couple of CDs with Hebrew folk melodies, and a book of 150 British Isles songs, with melodies and lyrics. Irish melodies in particular are great fo getting people to sing along. After a summer of burying my assembly in Irish melodies, our old Irish pastor, now retired, told them, "you're singing like a buncha Protestants. That's a good thing."

I didn't have the heart to tell him Protestants sing in 4-part harmony - I just had 'em singing in unison. But he was right about the level of participation...

Daf

*** - by the way - my only published piece, "Joy!" (GIA Publications, the Leavensong series), breaks all these rules...
 
Re: great topic

Sydney said:
I think there definately are rules, and the rules are defined in the context of music theory. Know what I mean? The rules may vary slightly depending upon the musical style (classical vs. jazz vs. pop), but I think there are some general rules that are universal.

I agree that rules can be broken, but if you break the rules, the song may not sound very good or have much meaning.

I'll give a shot on trying to write a couple of them:

For example:

1) The melody leads the key that the song is in, while the harmony has to follow it.

2) The melody should return back to it's original starting key to give the feeling of resolve.

3) The melody should change it's key at least once or twice to provide depth to the song.


For me, the melody is the hardest thing to come up with. I can come up with the chords and accompaniment that form the basis of a song. Interestly enough, I find that the singers I know, even though they have no musical training, come up with great melodies for the accompaniment I write.
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great points. Maybe "principles" would be more apt, as Layla said.

I read a book that divided the 7 main notes into active and passive. PAssive are C,E,G and C and octave higher. A song can end on any of these notes. Ie .1,3,5 and 8

The active notes are 2,4,6,7 . that is: RE, FA ,LA, TI. If one ends a song on these notes, it will sound extremely wierd and unresolved.
 
After reading this post, I spent a fair amount of time thinking about the question.

I can't think of any "rules' for writing a good song.

I can think of several guidelines related to form and structure. I can think of several concepts that lyrics should tell a story or in some way reach the listener. I can think of several fundamental theory applications related to melody, harmony and rhythem.

I can even think of hundreds (perhaps thousands) of songs that I consider to be "well written" (some for completely different reasons).

But I can't think of a single rule - every time I though I had thought of a rule, I could think of a song that broke that rule.
 
Layla Nahar said:
I have a melody for the last two bars of the phrase it goes to a different key - yet it is quite catch and surprisingly satisfying - you don't get a "huh? where'd that come from??!!" feeling.
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Two bars is not what I was referring to.....more like the entire chorus of a song, where the change would be melodic yet the key has indeed changed.


bd
 
Do you believe that there are rules to good melody writing?
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No.

melodies that go "up" sound better than ones that go "down"
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I can honestly say that I've never heard that before. That sounds like a matter of opinion more than a rule. Much as is stated in this whole thread so far. Everyone's rules are nothing more than opninion. We have already have theory as a basis for a song. You don't need to start telling people they have to write their songs a certain way too.
 
Yes . . . there are definitely "rules" (or, more precisely "tools") to good melody writing. Those tools are different for different types of songs, but they definitely exist.

If you are a songwriter hoping singers or bands in the pop or country genres will record your songs, there are tools such as 1) the name of the song must be in the chorus 2) the verses must lead up to the chorus 3) the use of repeating phrases 4) use of a standard (or at least identifiable) song form 5) use of melodic "hooks."

Not to say that the rules can't be broken succesfully, but if your aim is to get someone else to cut your song, you are more likely to get that cut if your song follows the standard "rules' (uses the standard tools).

A good book on this subject is Jason Bloom's "6 Secrets to Songwriting Success," published by Billboard books.

The "rules" are different if you are writing for yourself as a singer/songwriter or for your own band - or writing for other genres (like rap).

DCM
 
Jason Bloom.....what kind of music does he write?
All I gotta do is follow those guidelines and I can write a hit song? Where can I get my hands on that book?
All this time I've been naming the song after it's done, when I should have been naming them first and putting the name in the chorus.
I'll just go back and rename some of my songs from the chorus and maybe someone will pick em up then! Wow! Thanks!

Who was that masked man?


bd
 
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