M
moley
New member
Aaron Cheney said:
How do you figure?
How do you figure?
bdbdbuck
New member
For right handed players.....pick in the right hand, frets in the other.
For left handed...............................................or no?
bd
For left handed...............................................or no?
bd
Buffalo Bob
New member
Rule # 1:
BUY MY NEW BOOK!!!!!
"HOW TO WRITE HIT SONGS FOR TODAY'S MARKET"
The NEW BOOK contains secret methods for melody writing, as well as the definitive primer on writing HIT SONG HOOKS! I teach you the KEY PHRASES, HOT TEMPOS, AND PROGRAMMING TRICKS that will turn your mediocre songs into NUMBER ONE HITS!
The NEW BOOK also covers "Sampling/Stealing (what's the difference?), how to "borrow" a melody without getting caught, and how to utilize existing hit songs by changing the key/tempo.
Also included is a chapter on stealing song "concepts" by cruising internet MP3 forums!
Don't waste your valuable time on theory, composition and practice - take the shortcut! Soon you will be on your way to FAME AND FORTUNE!
Buy my NEW BOOK!
Buffalo Bob Swindell
The Starmaker Machine
Dry Wells, Arkansas
BUY MY NEW BOOK!!!!!
"HOW TO WRITE HIT SONGS FOR TODAY'S MARKET"
The NEW BOOK contains secret methods for melody writing, as well as the definitive primer on writing HIT SONG HOOKS! I teach you the KEY PHRASES, HOT TEMPOS, AND PROGRAMMING TRICKS that will turn your mediocre songs into NUMBER ONE HITS!
The NEW BOOK also covers "Sampling/Stealing (what's the difference?), how to "borrow" a melody without getting caught, and how to utilize existing hit songs by changing the key/tempo.
Also included is a chapter on stealing song "concepts" by cruising internet MP3 forums!
Don't waste your valuable time on theory, composition and practice - take the shortcut! Soon you will be on your way to FAME AND FORTUNE!
Buy my NEW BOOK!
Buffalo Bob Swindell
The Starmaker Machine
Dry Wells, Arkansas
bdbdbuck
New member
What happened Swindell....cruise liner sink? Hope Daisy Mae's ok! OIC....you're writing while gettin a tan on the deck of the boat! DAMN...Why didn't I take heed to your last book, the chapter titled "Living Large" had a special section on "borrowing" luxury vehicles.
bd
bd
Aaron Cheney
Favorite Chord: C 6/9
Aaron Cheney
Favorite Chord: C 6/9
moley said:How do you figure?
What is an "E"? Well, the rules of Western harmony define it as the notes "E", "G", and "B", or in other words the root, third, and fifth of the E Major scale. That's a whole big pile of rules right there.
The minute you go to another chord, the rules of Western harmony will tell you how you can expect the change to sound, and what chords you can follow it with to resolve the various tones, or keep it restless.
If you want to throw out the rules of Western Harmony and try something else, like Eastern Harmony, that can be fun too. Just another set of rules.
If you want to throw out any set of rules and use unorganized sound, that can be fun too. It will most likely sound like crap though, but can be fun in a rythmical way, like Blue Man Group or Stomp. Of course then you'd be following the rules of time signatures and such.
You can say you're not following rules, but just playing an instrument acknowledges that you are following someon's rules...
You can say you're not following rules, but if you are writing a melody based on the 12 notes of Western Theory, you are following rules...
As far a "sylistic rules", there are certain rules that define different syles of music. Rules that govern melody, harmony, and rythm and make Polka sound like Polka, or Blues sound like Blues. Stray too far from those rules, and you don't have Polka or Blues anymore. Not necesarrily bad, just not Polka or Blues.
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
M
moley
New member
Aaron Cheney said:What is an "E"? Well, the rules of Western harmony define it as the notes "E", "G", and "B", or in other words the root, third, and fifth of the E Major scale.
No, it doesn't. Western harmony defines E G# and B as the root 3rd and 5th of the E Major scale. E G B is E Minor. Sort it out!!
That's a whole big pile of rules right there.
Not rules, definitions.
There's no rules about what you can & can't play - only definitions that tell you what to call it...
The minute you go to another chord, the rules of Western harmony will tell you how you can expect the change to sound
No, your musical ear tells you how it will sound.
and what chords you can follow it with to resolve the various tones, or keep it restless.
That's not rules! Theory is not the same as rules. There are *no* rules that tell you what you can follow it with. None! You can do what you damn well like...
If you want to throw out the rules of Western Harmony and try something else, like Eastern Harmony, that can be fun too. Just another set of rules.
I maintain, they're not rules. Rules restrict. There are no restrictions. You don't have to follow any rules.
If you want to throw out any set of rules and use unorganized sound, that can be fun too. It will most likely sound like crap though, but can be fun in a rythmical way, like Blue Man Group or Stomp. Of course then you'd be following the rules of time signatures and such.
You can say you're not following rules, but just playing an instrument acknowledges that you are following someon's rules...
You can say you're not following rules, but if you are writing a melody based on the 12 notes of Western Theory, you are following rules...
No, it just means that you're using the tools already defined by Western theory. They're not rules. There's no rule that says you can only use those 12 notes. There's no rule that says you can't be microtonal. And people do use microtonality...
As far a "sylistic rules", there are certain rules that define different syles of music.
No there aren't. The music precedes the theory - not the other way round. By talking about styles of music, we're just doing an intellectual dance around it. It allows us to communicate with each other. But there are no rules!
G
glynb
Balladeer
Seems to me you're both getting hooked up on an argument about meanings of words, 'rule' or 'tool'?
RULE: 'a principle or condition that customarily governs behavior'
TOOL:
'an implement used in the practice of a vocation
noun: the means whereby some act is accomplished '
Seems to me that 'tool' doesn't apply to the notes we poput together to make up a pleasing sounding chord, in order to do that we follow a basic 'Rule'. The tool would be the guitar you were playing the chord on, or the strings, etc.
Look, if you don't follow ANY rules you don't have music, you just have noise, that's the bottom line.
Even 'atonal' music in the classical field follows some rules, even though to the untrained ear it sounds like a horrible racket! Even birdsong follows some 'rules' in that phrases get repeated deliberately - it is not just random tweats!
To get back to the questiners original intent are there rules to melody writing, yes, if you follow rules can you come up with a great song... well then you get into subjective opinion - for my part I'd say learn the rules and then go and break them and by doing so you will come up with something fresh and inovative.
RULE: 'a principle or condition that customarily governs behavior'
TOOL:
'an implement used in the practice of a vocation
noun: the means whereby some act is accomplished '
Seems to me that 'tool' doesn't apply to the notes we poput together to make up a pleasing sounding chord, in order to do that we follow a basic 'Rule'. The tool would be the guitar you were playing the chord on, or the strings, etc.
Look, if you don't follow ANY rules you don't have music, you just have noise, that's the bottom line.
Even 'atonal' music in the classical field follows some rules, even though to the untrained ear it sounds like a horrible racket! Even birdsong follows some 'rules' in that phrases get repeated deliberately - it is not just random tweats!
To get back to the questiners original intent are there rules to melody writing, yes, if you follow rules can you come up with a great song... well then you get into subjective opinion - for my part I'd say learn the rules and then go and break them and by doing so you will come up with something fresh and inovative.
M
moley
New member
Well, I wouldn't call it rules.
You said "Even birdsong follows some 'rules' in that phrases get repeated deliberately - it is not just random tweats!"
Yes - but structure, is not the same thing as rules, IMO! Rules represent restrictions. Structure is just that - structure.
You said "Even birdsong follows some 'rules' in that phrases get repeated deliberately - it is not just random tweats!"
Yes - but structure, is not the same thing as rules, IMO! Rules represent restrictions. Structure is just that - structure.
G
glynb
Balladeer
The question was...
"Do you believe that there are rules to good melody writing?"
Dictionary Definition of Melody:
noun: the perception of pleasant arrangements of musical notes
noun: a succession of notes forming a distinctive sequence
Hmmmm....that doesn't take us much further on does it, according to that any succesion of musical notes that someone found pleasant would be sufficient to be a 'melody'. However, would it be a 'good' melody?
If you define a 'good melody' as one that has wide popular appeal, then maybe we start to get closer. On the other hand the popular ones are arguably only popular because they get exposure in the media and are constantly repeated!
Shheeez...I give up on justifying this, expect to say it's 'common sense' that GOOD melody writing follows certain basic rules, and I'm not going to try to justify that statement any further, it's 'obvious' to me!
"Do you believe that there are rules to good melody writing?"
Dictionary Definition of Melody:
noun: the perception of pleasant arrangements of musical notes
noun: a succession of notes forming a distinctive sequence
Hmmmm....that doesn't take us much further on does it, according to that any succesion of musical notes that someone found pleasant would be sufficient to be a 'melody'. However, would it be a 'good' melody?
If you define a 'good melody' as one that has wide popular appeal, then maybe we start to get closer. On the other hand the popular ones are arguably only popular because they get exposure in the media and are constantly repeated!
Shheeez...I give up on justifying this, expect to say it's 'common sense' that GOOD melody writing follows certain basic rules, and I'm not going to try to justify that statement any further, it's 'obvious' to me!
bdbdbuck
New member
For the sake of this conversation, let's not confuse theory with rules. Maybe that will make sorting this thing out a little easier. Now having said that, I don't really see any hard and fast rules yet. Besides, rules are made to be broken.
bd
bd
Aaron Cheney
Favorite Chord: C 6/9
Semantics! In practice, "rules" and "definitions" are all the same thing.
Additionally, statements like "rules are restrictions" and "rules are made to be broken" are simply popular misconceptions.
Rules create order, and thus freedom. But I'll spare you my lecture on that! (My 13 year old is sick of it too!
But let me say this: the rules of theory and good melody writing are so inextricably linked that you can't simply discard one without the other. It reminds me of this old joke:
A scientist says to God "We have advanced so far that we no longer need you. In fact we can create human beings from the dust of the Earth just like you did, and do it better."
God says, "Is that so? Then let's have a contest to see who can make a human better and faster."
The scientist says "You got it. We each start with a handful of dirt, and on the count of three..."
At which God says "Ummm..... I don't think so. You go find your own dirt."
We all operate on this platform of Western theory, assuming it has always been there, when in actuality those rules were created by people just like you and me that needed to create order out of the thousand of pitches that actually exist. But if you like, we will forget about theory for the sake of this discussion. We will just assume it is musical "dirt".
more.....
Additionally, statements like "rules are restrictions" and "rules are made to be broken" are simply popular misconceptions.
Rules create order, and thus freedom. But I'll spare you my lecture on that! (My 13 year old is sick of it too!
But let me say this: the rules of theory and good melody writing are so inextricably linked that you can't simply discard one without the other. It reminds me of this old joke:
A scientist says to God "We have advanced so far that we no longer need you. In fact we can create human beings from the dust of the Earth just like you did, and do it better."
God says, "Is that so? Then let's have a contest to see who can make a human better and faster."
The scientist says "You got it. We each start with a handful of dirt, and on the count of three..."
At which God says "Ummm..... I don't think so. You go find your own dirt."
We all operate on this platform of Western theory, assuming it has always been there, when in actuality those rules were created by people just like you and me that needed to create order out of the thousand of pitches that actually exist. But if you like, we will forget about theory for the sake of this discussion. We will just assume it is musical "dirt".
more.....
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Aaron Cheney
Favorite Chord: C 6/9
I still maintain that rules for good melody writing exist, many of which I have outlined in previous posts. But the cool thing about art is that you can break them if you want to. You can paint a Mona Lisa, and then give her a big old moustache and black out 3 teeth. You can make a 45 minute song of random sine waves and white noise, with a bicycle horn solo. You can write a vocal melody that goes up the chromatic scale and right back down again for 10 minutes. But have you ever wondered why we don't have more paintings and songs like those?
Answer: because they suck. They are art, but they suck.
And just to address a couple specific points: Yes people do use micro tonality. And neither of them have ever had any kind of commercial success, and probably less than .1% of people even know there names.
Secondly: Yes, theory does tell you how a chord change will sound. It also tells you how to resolve the tones. If you know the rules, you don't even need to hear the notes to know what the music you are writing will sound like.
I guess I have to agree with glynb:
"Shheeez...I give up on justifying this, expect to say it's 'common sense' that GOOD melody writing follows certain basic rules, and I'm not going to try to justify that statement any further, it's 'obvious' to me!"
And by the way…. I did know that it was G#. It was just a typo…. Really!
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
Answer: because they suck. They are art, but they suck.
And just to address a couple specific points: Yes people do use micro tonality. And neither of them have ever had any kind of commercial success, and probably less than .1% of people even know there names.
Secondly: Yes, theory does tell you how a chord change will sound. It also tells you how to resolve the tones. If you know the rules, you don't even need to hear the notes to know what the music you are writing will sound like.
I guess I have to agree with glynb:
"Shheeez...I give up on justifying this, expect to say it's 'common sense' that GOOD melody writing follows certain basic rules, and I'm not going to try to justify that statement any further, it's 'obvious' to me!"
And by the way…. I did know that it was G#. It was just a typo…. Really!
Aaron
http://www.voodoovibe.com
N
NEB
New member
Ok I know nothing about music theory, I just write what is in my head. I do not even read a note of music. But i have written tons of songs, all for acoustic instrumental guitar. And this much I know......
-A good melody is one that stimulates emotion in the listener.-
Oh ...and for the "up verses down" theory....Micheal Hedges proved that melodies going up is not always best....... with "Baal T' Shuvah"- and "Bensusan"
Also...Alex Degrassi---"The Children's Dance"
Where as "Causeway" does go from low to high.
Interestingly, "Childrens dance" is happy and "causeway" is somber. You would think it would be the other way around based on how the melodies work, (in theory)
Neb---in my own words.
-A good melody is one that stimulates emotion in the listener.-
Oh ...and for the "up verses down" theory....Micheal Hedges proved that melodies going up is not always best....... with "Baal T' Shuvah"- and "Bensusan"
Also...Alex Degrassi---"The Children's Dance"
Where as "Causeway" does go from low to high.
Interestingly, "Childrens dance" is happy and "causeway" is somber. You would think it would be the other way around based on how the melodies work, (in theory)
Neb---in my own words.
T
Toker41
Better Than You
Rules are there for a reason, but there are exceptions to all of them. Write what sounds good to you, and don't get too hung up on the tech of it. Most of the time, if it sounds good...it has followed most of the rules.
I find the rules come more into play when writing the rest of the parts around the melody.
I find the rules come more into play when writing the rest of the parts around the melody.
bdbdbuck
New member
Aaron, NEB and Toker.....we're all basically on the same page here, it's getting tossed around in a lot of different directions, but still no real rules (that don't speak to theory) have come out. The last 5 or 6 comments have been thought provoking, to say the least.
bd
bd
joro
The Pie Guy
Buffalo Bob said:
hehehehehehehe......
T
Toker41
Better Than You
I Understand Theory all too well. I've written symphonies just by following the science of music theory, without ever playing a note on a single instrument I was writing for, and (if I do say so myself) they turned out very good. However...Aaron Cheney said:
....ROCK AND ROLL IS ABOUT BREAKING RULES.
It helps to know the rules, but trust your ears first. Elvis didn't know theory.
N
NEB
New member
Ok I've been reading through the other posts. Fastinating! There is alot of knowledge out there. I know nothing about all that stuff.
But it is clear to me...that there are two different types of writers. Those who write from a recipe and those who write with passion or intuition.
And those who write from a recipe are always trying to figure out why the passionate music is so good.
Enter--rules.
Sometimes science is only proving what art has already made clear. But science, or rules, make it easier for those without the gift of intuition to create art.
I write some of my best stuff for guitar with my eyes closed.
-Neb----an unmolested point of view.
I know I am going to take a hit on this one. Thats ok. Artists thrive on rejection.
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/wyman
But it is clear to me...that there are two different types of writers. Those who write from a recipe and those who write with passion or intuition.
And those who write from a recipe are always trying to figure out why the passionate music is so good.
Enter--rules.
Sometimes science is only proving what art has already made clear. But science, or rules, make it easier for those without the gift of intuition to create art.
I write some of my best stuff for guitar with my eyes closed.
-Neb----an unmolested point of view.
I know I am going to take a hit on this one. Thats ok. Artists thrive on rejection.
http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/wyman
T
Toker41
Better Than You
I have always said there is a difference between a musician and an artist. Anyone can learn to play the notes and how they work, but not everyone can create or express themselves with it.